Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

After watching our passing game struggle from time to time this season I have one question relative to selection, and pass routes.

Why do we not ever throw the ball down the middle of the field? Why are all our pass plays of the same basic variety, short in the flat to Cooley,wide receiver screen? It appears the opposing defenses have only to cover our passing game outside the hashes and never have to defend the middle of the field. In today's game Brunell only threw one pass inside the hash marks that was complete (to Moss) one other on the post was forced, and intercepted.

Discuss

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]After watching our passing game struggle from time to time this season I have one question relative to selection, and pass routes.

Why do we not ever throw the ball down the middle of the field? Why are all our pass plays of the same basic variety, short in the flat to Cooley,wide receiver screen? It appears the opposing defenses have only to cover our passing game outside the hashes and never have to defend the middle of the field. In today's game Brunell only threw one pass inside the hash marks that was complete (to Moss) one other on the post was forced, and intercepted.

Discuss[/QUOTE]

Why is most of the offensive play-calling so predictable and conservative? Better ask that question of Gibbs, not us.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

If Moss was open all day long in the middle, the ball would get to him. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. You have to take what the defense gives you sometimes.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]Why is most of the offensive play-calling so predictable and conservative? Better ask that question of Gibbs, not us.[/QUOTE]

So how would call the game from start to finish?

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

We're playing the hand we've been dealt.

This is a team thats strengths lie in a conservative attack. Nobody is going to mistake this offense for the Colts or Bengals, and there's no use in trying to make us that way. That's like trying to force a square peg through a circle hole.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

It seems that most of Moss routes are fly patterns designed to go straight for the endzone. He is the only wideout of any threat to opponents. Jacobs and Farris are worthless. You're right though, there aren't many passes set up in the short to intermediate range in the middle of the field. In reality, I think it's more of a lack of quality receivers behind Moss and Cooley.

I wonder why there aren't more screens to Portis.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

lack of possesion type receiver. remember the McCants controversy? not that McCants was the second coming of Art Monk, but Moss and Patten are small and NOT suited to outmuscle linebackers and safeties over the middle, much less take the shots. God bless Cooley, but he's not going to dart right into the middle on a slant.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

Did you catch the offensive formation on the second to last possession we had? On second down Gibbs had one receiver on the line and no FB as a blocker for Portis which resulted loss yardage. Why in the hell would Gibbs have one receiver on the line and no one in motion? Our playcalling was geared toward the run and it did not work. Rock Cartwright deserved to get some handoffs. Betts was not that productive to handle all the carries besides Portis.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

plain and simple we do not have the talent at w.r.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

besides moss

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]So how would call the game from start to finish?[/QUOTE]

For one thing, I'd try and go downfield a lot more and to do that you need a QB who can throw it long - Ramsey, not Brunell. Not necessarily bombs all day long, but whatever happened to the 15 to 25 yard pass? We seldom if ever see it called. Our offense is very predictable and has been for a long time. The Gibbs innovations that were his trademark in the 80's simply are nowhere to be seen the last year and a half. Hence, the inability to score more than 20 points in most of our games under Gibbs.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

I would say size. Even a mediocre but large receiver could take a couple of shots over the middle. Like someone else said, though, Moss just isn't big enough for that to be an effective part of our game.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]For one thing, I'd try and go downfield a lot more and to do that you need a QB who can throw it long - Ramsey, not Brunell.[/Quote]

Please that argument is old and has been debunked a long time ago.

[QUOTE=Lady T]
Not necessarily bombs all day long, but whatever happened to the 15 to 25 yard pass? We seldom if ever see it called.[/QUOTE]

We see it called quite often, but our ONE receiver can't get open when he's double and tripled teamed.

[QUOTE= Lady T]
Our offense is very predictable and has been for a long time. The Gibbs innovations that were his trademark in the 80's simply are nowhere to be seen the last year and a half. Hence, the inability to score more than 20 points in most of our games under Gibbs.[/QUOTE]

Oh please, that is another argument that has been debunked a long time ago. Again, I ask you how you would have called the game from start to finish, and all you can tell me is you'd put in Ramsey and tell him to throw it deep. But you haven't given me a specific gameplan nor have you told me what you'd tell your qb to do if the receiver is not open downfield.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]For one thing, I'd try and go downfield a lot more and to do that you need a QB who can throw it long - Ramsey, not Brunell. Not necessarily bombs all day long, but whatever happened to the 15 to 25 yard pass? We seldom if ever see it called. Our offense is very predictable and has been for a long time. The Gibbs innovations that were his trademark in the 80's simply are nowhere to be seen the last year and a half. Hence, the inability to score more than 20 points in most of our games under Gibbs.[/QUOTE]

More easily said than done, obviously.

If it's not there it's not there.

Defenses have focused on taking away Moss deep. Or do you think the team has just made a conscious effort to stop going down the field like they were earlier in the season?

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

I would agree that we have limited times gone over the middle, but when we have we have had success. If Moss is being double teamed and he runs a corner route it should clear it out for a Tight end, Cooley, or the play we have scored on a couple times and also had big gains the TB out of the backfield on a seam route down the middle of the field. We do work the edges and flats a lot. I can only hope Gibbs is holding some plays for this week. I think he will test Dallas deep this week, especially after that last deep pass against dallas that set up the FG yesterday, right across the middle and that is where we had our success in the previous game. Dallas is going to bring the house, so we will probably have some slants and short to intermediate passing this game. Moss should have a cushion this week also.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

Like previously stated, Moss is the #1 guy and is the downfield threat. He is the fly guy so to speak, but will occasionally run the post in the middle. The reason nothing goes to the middle is because that is generally your #2 or #3 guys in the slot or trying to get the safety to commit down the middle leaving moss open down the sideline. However, since our #2(Jacobs) and #3(whoever) suck, and cant get open if I covered them, Moss is double sometimes tripled teamed.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

Just curious T. Jacobs has not produced and from the way it sounds he is left in man coverage. The dude can fly, where is his weakness, route running, getting off the line with the DB. That short slant is hard as hell to cover for a DB, so why is he not getting the ball he is much faster than Cooley and surely can run a better route as a WR so how is Cooley getting open and Jacobs not. Most of the time when he gets it, also on the edge none across the middle. Is Brunell not looking their way and focused on Moss and Cooley. Are we saying they suck because of the stats, because even Patten stats sucked and if I recall alot of people were saying he sucked as a number two receiver, now we revert that he was the reason why Moss is blanketed now. From what I see we are not getting the ball to our # 2 and 3 receivers no matter who is in there. It is not Patten demanded more coverage than the other guys, Defenses just blanket moss and say beat us with your # 2 and #3 receivers. From the beginning of the year our 2nd and 3rd receivers have not even had many balls thrown to them. I can recall watching some of the games Patten running alone and never looked at by the QB. I think the only time Brunell hits a secondary receiver is if it is a dump down when he is being pressured.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=skins052bgr8]Just curious T. Jacobs has not produced and from the way it sounds he is left in man coverage. The dude can fly, where is his weakness, route running, getting off the line with the DB. That short slant is hard as hell to cover for a DB, so why is he not getting the ball he is much faster than Cooley and surely can run a better route as a WR so how is Cooley getting open and Jacobs not. Most of the time when he gets it, also on the edge none across the middle. Is Brunell not looking their way and focused on Moss and Cooley. Are we saying they suck because of the stats, because even Patten stats sucked and if I recall alot of people were saying he sucked as a number two receiver, now we revert that he was the reason why Moss is blanketed now. From what I see we are not getting the ball to our # 2 and 3 receivers no matter who is in there. It is not Patten demanded more coverage than the other guys, Defenses just blanket moss and say beat us with your # 2 and #3 receivers. From the beginning of the year our 2nd and 3rd receivers have not even had many balls thrown to them. I can recall watching some of the games Patten running alone and never looked at by the QB. I think the only time Brunell hits a secondary receiver is if it is a dump down when he is being pressured.[/QUOTE]

Jacobs does have good speed, but he does not run very good routes, as a #2 should. I get muscled at the line of scrimmage and get off the ball. Cooley is very good at finding the open spots on the field, which alot of teams have reported. Cooley just has that "knack" of finding space. Since Jacobs does not require to have a safety help, that leaves him one on one most of the time and Moss doubled or triple covered. This is why we run those screens to him because he is a playmaker and we have to find ways to get him the ball if we can't get him open down field. When patten played, his stats might not have been so good, but because of his reputation as a good route runner and a guy with good speed they could not just leave him one on one with alot of corners, which enabled moss to find open spots as well as being able to get behind corners and safeties. Until we can find someone that demands more attention with coverage out pass selections will be more geared to the shorter routes with moss and cooley. I did like seeing Portis in motion and catching more balls out of the backfield and 10 to 15 years down field. They may be mixing more of the plays in to try and help Moss get some breathing room down field. Cooley and Royal will be used more for the release plays and short crossing patters across the middle. Once we establish this as plays that need the attention of the defense, Moss will find open spaces across the middle and will open up the double moves for the posts and fly patterns.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic]Jacobs does have good speed, but he does not run very good routes, as a #2 should. I get muscled at the line of scrimmage and get off the ball. Cooley is very good at finding the open spots on the field, which alot of teams have reported. Cooley just has that "knack" of finding space. Since Jacobs does not require to have a safety help, that leaves him one on one most of the time and Moss doubled or triple covered. This is why we run those screens to him because he is a playmaker and we have to find ways to get him the ball if we can't get him open down field. When patten played, his stats might not have been so good, but because of his reputation as a good route runner and a guy with good speed they could not just leave him one on one with alot of corners, which enabled moss to find open spots as well as being able to get behind corners and safeties. Until we can find someone that demands more attention with coverage out pass selections will be more geared to the shorter routes with moss and cooley. I did like seeing Portis in motion and catching more balls out of the backfield and 10 to 15 years down field. They may be mixing more of the plays in to try and help Moss get some breathing room down field. Cooley and Royal will be used more for the release plays and short crossing patters across the middle. Once we establish this as plays that need the attention of the defense, Moss will find open spaces across the middle and will open up the double moves for the posts and fly patterns.[/QUOTE]

Cooley definitely does have that knack of finding the spot and settling down or just running the route to the open spot. Frustrating with Jacobs not being more productive, but glad he is getting his chance so we won't hold him again next year for zero contribution 3 years now, this will eliminate the 4th year. Royal has rebounded well and a good outlet since that SD game, had to be a fluke, I never remember him dropping that many balls. Anyway you look at it we are doing alright with what we have and using the playmakers to get it done.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]
We see it called quite often, but our ONE receiver can't get open when he's double and tripled teamed.
[/QUOTE]

he might not be open, but i'd bet he could still come down with 50-60% of the balls if brunell would throw it somewhere near him... brunell is ultra conservative about throwing into coverage though, but when he's done it, it's worked.

Re: Question about Pass-Play Selection
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Did you catch the offensive formation on the second to last possession we had? On second down Gibbs had one receiver on the line and no FB as a blocker for Portis which resulted loss yardage. Why in the hell would Gibbs have one receiver on the line and no one in motion? Our playcalling was geared toward the run and it did not work. Rock Cartwright deserved to get some handoffs. Betts was not that productive to handle all the carries besides Portis.[/QUOTE]

I agree that that was a crazy formation, but in the Vikings game last year, with one receiver and no fullback, Ramsey went play action and threw a 40+ yard completion to Jacobs. All the plays are designed to get positive yardage, but sometimes I think the plays are set up to give the next team some game film so that we can trick a safety into biting on the run.