[30gut]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

It takes a minute to adjust from the NCAA to the NFL. Once that happens the elite QB prospect becomes an elite NFL QB. The difference is in being a prospect, and actually making the transition to an elite NFL QB.

Disagree.
There aren't many 'elite' QBs.
Imo being an elite QB only happens when mastery is reached and if its reached at all it doesn't happen overnight.

No. Both Mannings and others have gone into teams that were in bad shape. Because the team around them is bad, doesn't mean the QB is bad.

Disagree.
First while i think Eli is a good QB i don't think he's 'elite'.
Second i don't think Peyton was in a bad team they had talent and a strong front office.
The Giants also had talent and a strong FO.

The situation is important, but if the organization is solid and not an Oakland, Cincy, etc. The team will not be in terrible shape for too long. Having an elite QB will make that average team good, and that good team great.

Well that's my point if a QB was the capable independent of the situation around them he would be able to reach that elite level like you said.
And i think a QB can have success and stive to become eilte only when there are pieces around them.

A kid coming out of college can be rated and evaulated as an elite QB, if he makes the transition then the evaluators were right. If not, they made a poor evalaution or the QB went to a terrible long-term situation. It's why elite QBs don't grow on tress and are so important to playoff success in the NFL.

Your basically making my point here, an 'elite' QB or even a 'franchise' QB cannot be determine until they reach that status.

That's like saying all NFL lineman have the requiste skill to play OL, or all NFL RBs have the skill to play RB.....but I don't think there's an argument that a healthy Chris Samuels is leaps and bounds better than Stephon Heyer or Levi Jones. Similarly a LT in his prime is far better than Ladell Betts.

Actually no its not because were talking specifically about QBs.
But, if you want to extend my logic to other position it would go like this:
an UDFA C like Jeff Saturaday can become a pro-bowl Center an 1st round/1st pick OT like Mike Williams can be out of football. Denver Bronco's produced many 1,000 yard backs provided they could learn the 1 cut zone read system; regardless of draft position.

As fans we didn't have all the scouting info and reports that we get to see now, but I recall questions about Shuler's mental abilities before he was drafted.

Maybe, but i never heard them and Heath is a pretty smart guy.
(Imo he's still the best QB prospect i can remember)

Franchises don't normally "create" franschise QBs except in extreme cases (Brady, Montana).

Disagree.
Mike Holmgren was a virtual QB factory Favre, Brunell, Hasselbeck and many other back-ups.

But I agree that having the tools in place to help the elite QB be successful are important. But those pieces can be built around the QB. The teams that draft QBs in the first round and never seem to succeed are generally poor franshices, with poor talent evaluators.

Again, you're making my point.

Warner is not an elite QB, he needs the pieces around him to be successful.

I don't understand how you can say that Eli is elite and Warner isn't.
And all the good QBs have pieces around them.

I get what you're saying but i don't think your seeing what i'm saying.
I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Good discussion though.

Anyway, HTTR!