[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

My point was who pays the civil penalty? Now criminal penalty would do the trick if AZ really wanted to forces cities/localities to act. Is there provisions in the law that cuts off funding for cities and localities? I can easily tell you that all cities and localities will have to do to get out of having to enforce the law is to say "we don't have enough resources."

Unless they don't have telephone/Internet service they'll have no excuse. There are also plenty of grants from the state of AZ and Fed that focus on security/emergency services. That won't fly.

If a judgement is levied against a locality you can be 100% sure the state of AZ will withhold funding in the next fiscal year to repay any fines levied. Without going back to look at where the penalties/fines go, I believe it's into a state fund to police gang and illegal immigration activity. Simple transfer of funds at the state level, and the locality would never even see the money.

You're telling me even Sheriff Joe has been ineffective? How is this law going to help these counties? Or is the plan that they simply go away? Even the criminals? The poor guy standing in front of Home Depot will dip-set but not sure about the guy at the chop-shop.

If those numbers are fairly constant throughout the state and you can reduce them by even 30%, that's a huge net gain for the state and localities.

The problem with the Patriot Act is spying on US Citizens...the problem with the Arizona law is racial profiling even if the law does not allow for profiling. These are legitimate objections of a freedom-liberty-america loving citizens. If you're brown looking best not jay-walk to the ice-cream truck with your daughter. BTW, does the new law provide for more training? Are there funding provisions in it?

Didn't see any provisions for training funds in the statute, however as I mentioned above there are many programs at state and Federal level that provide grants particularly for law enforcement activities. I'm also sure these localities will make the funding available for proper training (which I'm sure wouldn't be expensive anyway) to make sure they're not going to run afoul of the state or some left-wing legal group looking to score (ACLU, etc.)

You're a business man, what's the cost of incarceration vs issues surrounding illegal immigration Arizona? I guess we have to do the math to know the true...either that or wait a few years. Alas, Arizona doesn't have a prayer in court (BTW, if anyone wants to take that bet I'll be happy to).

That will be the true barometer, anything else is speculation. However my speculation is that a reduction in crime and reduced stress on state/city services would amount to a net gain vs. short term incarceration pending deportation by ICE.

What does due diligence mean? Check if their name comes up when you do a database search for it? Good luck proving "knows and recklessly disregards."

From a company standpoint, I would say as long as the company made sure to verify the required documents for employment (Standard I-9 stuff) and kept records of the documents on file, that would show due diligence IMO.

"Knows and recklessly disregards" is a gray area, but the intent is to target organizations or individuals who have a track record of sheltering/transporting illegals for profit, rather than an individual who gave someone some food and water that looked needy.

Anywho, I know you guys really dislike these illegals but don't lose sight what is and isn't a responsible and effective policy.

Anywho, I have no dislike for people who are simply coming to America to try to work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families. Unfortunately we can't be all things to all people and public services come at a cost. We have serious issues here at home (struggling economy, national debt crisis, state budget issues, Medicare & SS insolvency looming, double digit unemployment in many places) and the illegal immigrant situation is only making things worse.

I do however have a major problem with Mexican nationals who profit from human smuggling, drug cartels, illegal thugs (primarily Mexican) who commit serious crimes including murder, and illegals that come to abuse/take advantage of the Federal and state social services. This law is designed to slow/stop this type of behavior. The person who sneaks into the U.S. illegally is still breaking U.S. law, but will likely not be affected by this law unless they are caught in some sort of employer-based sting, they break the law, or attempt to access a government service to which they aren't (and shouldn't be) entitled.

And at the end of the day, all these statutes do is re-enforce existing law.