[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Again, every country is made of humans and, as such, each may be "redeemed". The Germans have redeemed themselves in many ways and struggle with it still. This transformation occurred, however, after the US and its allies spent considerable blood and treasure destroying the prior militiristic society and then, through the Marshall Plan, spent massive amounts of money rebuilding our former enemy's economy. Russia's transformation came about after a long costly cold war in which the US opposed the dictataorial oligarchy of the Soviet Union. Without such constant opposition from the US, I would suggest that the Soviet Union and its disregard for individual human rights would still be a force for oppression in this world. See my notes on China below.


Okay. I don't disagree with that apologies should be just that apologies without qualification. I don't think the "addition and subtraction" is as rampant as you seem to think. I believe that, as a nation, we are more likely to admit to our faults than many others. Sometimes, to a fault. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.



I can. Mainly because, but for the intervention of the US - Japan, Germany and Korea would not have been transformed. As for China, it's human rights violations are legion and the crimes it commits against its own citizens make a comparision to the US laughable.

- Germany's and Japan's society's didn't just wake up one morning and say - "Hey, let's tansform ourselves." Transformation occurred after their militiristic societies were beaten, their homelands occupied by the US, and their governments were remade during occupation along democratic lines by the US (in Japan's case) and the Western Allies (In Germany's case - specifically West Germany).

Korea? Which Korea? The one currently under a communist dictator or the one that the US and its Allies spent blood and treasure to preserve from North Korean aggression? But for US intervention and American lives spent, there would be no S. Korea to transform.

CHINA??? Are you seriously holding them up as a "transformed society"? Please:
China Human Rights | Amnesty International USA

China and Human Rights — Global Issues


Sure, as a society, the US has plenty of black marks in its history - slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, our colonization of the Philipines, our treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, etc. We also have much on the other side of the ledger - a civil war to end slavery, the civil rights movement, our opposition of tyrany in various forms throughout history, etc. They are all part of the US's "body of work".

Again, in history, admitting that we are seriously flawed in our practice, I challenge you to find any other country that has done more to promote, provide and protect individual human rights and the rule of law than the US.

I think it is equally important that we point out that the U.S. and it's allies were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Throughout their history the Germans were strong people but rarely militaristic society. They were defensive brutes at worst and philosophers at best. The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.

It's one thing to admit to your faults, it's another to justify your faults and only correct them after decades if ever. That is what this country does more often than not and I think that's slightly better than Chinese not admitting to its faults. Remember, the China transitioned from aristocracy to Communism fairly recently and in that process the communist pointed out the faults of the aristocracy. Communism is ultimately self-defeating the piper will be calling for the communists one of these days and the faults of the communist will similarly be pointed out. The same thing can be said about the Russians.

I was speaking of South Korea. You had people that wanted to be free and people who wanted communism. Like I said, communism is ultimately self-defeating but it's definitely nice to have altruistic help from the U.S. Hopefully that desire to help will be extend to the North Koreans one of these days.

China's human rights is just as laughable as that of the United States but you wouldn't know it talking to Americans. Human rights is somehow extended to torture and political imprisonment of dissenters in the U.S. but not to justified torture, opportunity and equality. How many people are in prison in United States again and how many innocent people are falsely imprisoned? How many egregious laws are there in the books simply because it serves a political purpose certain kinds of people?

Historically speaking we are comparing countries/societies who have existed for millenniums, lack diversity and were not found based on the ideals of equality, freedom and democracy with a country that has been round centuries, diverse, and found based on the aforementioned qualities. Obviously these countries can't adapt to change as rapidly as the U.S. but if we compare which countries have gone through a significant change for the better over their life span I don't believe the U.S. wins which is the point I was making.