building for a superbowl?

[skinster]

I have a question for everyone on this site, "What direction do you think we are headed in? Do you think we will have the pieces to win the super bowl in the next few years?'
My personal answer to that question is no way in hell. I feel like we are building our team to compete for the playoffs, not the superbowl. We simply have too many holes, and more will develop as our already old team gets even older. We do not have enough ammo to fill those holes in the next few years with our limited amount of draft picks. I guess this whole thread is really a reaction to the McNabb trade. I feel that you should only trade the number 35 overall pick and a third rounder for a 34 year old veteran when that 34 year old veteran will be the missing piece to your superbowl run. I do not believe we are close to a superbowl run, and trading away such keys to our future is ludicrous in my mind. Will McNabb significantly improve our team over the next few years? Yes without a doubt. But we simply do not have the pieces to make a run for the superbowl in the near future, and I feel like trading away future young talent is also trading away the chances of a superbowl for an even longer time. As excited as I am to see our teams improvement next year, I still strongly disapprove of our mentality of trading away the potential for future greatness to remain in mediocrity in the present.

And on a separate note, the eagles I feel made a brilliant move by trading within the division. Their key players are all young, Kolb, Jackson, Maclin, Celic, McCoy. I feel like they are looking toward the future in that trade because they know the trade will cripple us in the long run, while their young talent has time to develop, and they will bring in even more young talent. I do not feel like the Eagles care as much as this season as they do the a few seasons down the road. They know they do not currently have the pieces to truly make a superbowl run, and are trying to assemble the pieces to make one in the future. (I know I will hear alot of disagreement on this thought)

Last thing I wanted to say. In my mind, Shanahan is a great coach, but is TERRIBLE at assembling a roster. His best seasons were teams that he inherited. I feel like he historically has made numerous terrible trades (i.e. jarvis moss), has done a very poor job drafting future talent, and has done a poor job of signing the right free agents (and giving them alot of money, i.e Daniel Grahm). The talent that was on the Broncos team when McDaniels inherited it is a joke in my mind (specifically the defense). There were so many great holes on that team that in my mind they could have possibly had the worst talent in the NFL.

Sorry if I rambled a bit, but I've had to get these things off my chest, please share your thoughts on what I said.

[Meks]

Lets just see how some of our younger guys play this season... and see how the rest of the off season pans out...
No offense but I really think u wasted ur time here

[rbanerjee23]

I honestly don't think the eagles will be in that great of a shape...Kolb will really have to show up for them to have the same kind of offense. Westbrook is out, Desean Jackson was great because of McNabb and Kolb hasn't played any meaningful time.

[davy]

Originally Posted by rbanerjee23

Desean Jackson was great because of McNabb.

I'd love to know how you work that one out. :smashfrea

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by davy

I'd love to know how you work that one out. :smashfrea

It's not far fetched. In fact it's frequently accepted that 9 times out of 10 the QB make the receiver not the other way around. We saw Randy Moss, thought to be the best reciever in the game miss a 1,000 yards in Oakland, Sydney Rice was a bust before Farve came in, and Vincent Jackson would likely be hanging on a string at this point had it not been for him catching passes from Rivers. You can also look at how the Saints have seemingly random guys constantly stepping up (for example Marquis Colston as a rookie). Wes Welker was average without Brady.

In fact there are only a few receivers in the game today that are capable of producing with average QB play. Those guys are currently Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Brandon Marshall, and Roddy White. Guys like Randy Moss and T.O used to be in this category.

The thing with Desean Jackson is you have to ask yourself how his career would have shaped up had we drafted him instead of Philly. To me Jackson is a very good receiver but without a good QB you would likely never know that.

[davy]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

It's not far fetched. In fact it's frequently accepted that 9 times out of 10 the QB make the receiver not the other way around. We saw Randy Moss, thought to be the best reciever in the game miss a 1,000 yards in Oakland, Sydney Rice was a bust before Farve came in, and Vincent Jackson would likely be hanging on a string at this point had it not been for him catching passes from Rivers. You can also look at how the Saints have seemingly random guys constantly stepping up (for example Marquis Colston as a rookie). Wes Welker was average without Brady.

In fact there are only a few receivers in the game today that are capable of producing with average QB play. Those guys are currently Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Brandon Marshall, and Roddy White. Guys like Randy Moss and T.O used to be in this category.

The thing with Desean Jackson is you have to ask yourself how his career would have shaped up had we drafted him instead of Philly. To me Jackson is a very good receiver but without a good QB you would likely never know that.

All valid points but he did have over 100yds receiving both games that Kolb started and he didn't get a lot of help from Mcnabb while returning punts or running reverses.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

It's not far fetched.

Desean having all of those 50+ yard catches either by making guys miss or just getting ridiculously wide open is attributed more to him than McNabb. McNabb might shake a safety off with his eyes, but Desean made a lot of opportunities for himself.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

Desean having all of those 50+ yard catches either by making guys miss or just getting ridiculously wide open is attributed more to him than McNabb. McNabb might shake a safety off with his eyes, but Desean made a lot of opportunities for himself.

True, but McNabb did do a good job of ball placement which helped as well. Clearly it takes two to tango, and two players on the same page to connect on those type passes. Everyone knows I am not trying to hijack this and turn it into another JC thread, but I remember last pre-season when JC had Kelly(i think) and JC underthrew him and JC said I didn't know Kelly had that speed in him. I think McNabb will connect on those type passes with more frequency than JC. I hope so at least.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by davy

I'd love to know how you work that one out. :smashfrea

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by skinster

I have a question for everyone on this site, "What direction do you think we are headed in? Do you think we will have the pieces to win the super bowl in the next few years?'
.

Isn't that what the goal is for everyteam?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by skinster

I have a question for everyone on this site, "What direction do you think we are headed in? Do you think we will have the pieces to win the super bowl in the next few years?'
My personal answer to that question is no way in hell. I feel like we are building our team to compete for the playoffs, not the superbowl. We simply have too many holes, and more will develop as our already old team gets even older. We do not have enough ammo to fill those holes in the next few years with our limited amount of draft picks. I guess this whole thread is really a reaction to the McNabb trade. I feel that you should only trade the number 35 overall pick and a third rounder for a 34 year old veteran when that 34 year old veteran will be the missing piece to your superbowl run. I do not believe we are close to a superbowl run, and trading away such keys to our future is ludicrous in my mind. Will McNabb significantly improve our team over the next few years? Yes without a doubt. But we simply do not have the pieces to make a run for the superbowl in the near future, and I feel like trading away future young talent is also trading away the chances of a superbowl for an even longer time. As excited as I am to see our teams improvement next year, I still strongly disapprove of our mentality of trading away the potential for future greatness to remain in mediocrity in the present.

And on a separate note, the eagles I feel made a brilliant move by trading within the division. Their key players are all young, Kolb, Jackson, Maclin, Celic, McCoy. I feel like they are looking toward the future in that trade because they know the trade will cripple us in the long run, while their young talent has time to develop, and they will bring in even more young talent. I do not feel like the Eagles care as much as this season as they do the a few seasons down the road. They know they do not currently have the pieces to truly make a superbowl run, and are trying to assemble the pieces to make one in the future. (I know I will hear alot of disagreement on this thought)

Last thing I wanted to say. In my mind, Shanahan is a great coach, but is TERRIBLE at assembling a roster. His best seasons were teams that he inherited. I feel like he historically has made numerous terrible trades (i.e. jarvis moss), has done a very poor job drafting future talent, and has done a poor job of signing the right free agents (and giving them alot of money, i.e Daniel Grahm). The talent that was on the Broncos team when McDaniels inherited it is a joke in my mind (specifically the defense). There were so many great holes on that team that in my mind they could have possibly had the worst talent in the NFL.

Sorry if I rambled a bit, but I've had to get these things off my chest, please share your thoughts on what I said.

Wow skinster. You must have been in a pissy mood when you wrote that.

Denver was middle of the pack at worst when Shanahan was shown the door. To say that they had "the worst talent in the NFL" would be quite a stretch. If you're right, and we're building a playoff team, then that's the first step and it says this team is headed in the right direction.

Let's wait to see how the rest of the offseason works out. There's still the draft, still some trades to be made and we haven't seen the last new addition to the team. Super Bowl teams aren't built in a matter or 2 or 3 months.

[Longtimefan]

The poster makes some excellent points, the results of which demonstrate why the Eagles have maintained long term success within the division and our course of action has been the reverse. They continue to infuse the team with young talent and develop it. There's nothing to develop when you build with older players, when they're done the only alternative is to procure more older players.

As to building for a super-bowl......I'm convinced Shanahan came here to win, he's void of a thirty year plan. So, with a GM and HC both embracing "the future is now " doctrine, I would say the team is currently being constructed towards making that the ultimate goal in a short period of time.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Longtimefan

The poster makes some excellent points, the results of which demonstrate why the Eagles have maintained long term success within the division and our course of action has been the reverse. They continue to infuse the team with young talent and develop it. There's nothing to develop when you build with older players, when they're done the only alternative is to procure more older players.

As to building for a super-bowl......I'm convinced Shanahan came here to win, he's void of a thirty year plan. So, with a GM and HC both embracing "the future is now " doctrine, I would say the team is currently being constructed towards making that the ultimate goal in a short period of time.

Len Pasquarelli basically said the same thing just after the trade for Donovan McNabb:

Owner Dan Snyder has failed before in trying to buy a title. He might employ a new general manager and a new coach, but they appear to have fallen for the same ill-advised approach that derailed their predecessors . . . The Redskins ... would prefer to buy talent rather than take the time to develop it.

I've been thinking about this, because for a long time I've wanted to see this organization build from a foundation of young, promising players, stockpile draft picks, and essentially tough it out for a season or two while the young guys learn even if it means sucking it up with some losing seasons.

Clearly though, Shanahan and Allen don't see it that way. But then I thought, who really does anymore? When was the last time you saw a team truly blow everything up, start from scratch ? The Colts with Peyton Manning come to mind, back in 1998. They had an awful season in '97, wound up with the first overall pick, but put together a long term winner with Polian built mainly with draft picks and had a long, slow climb to the top.

I just don't think you see that anymore. The Saints brought in a free agent QB in Drew Brees that got them to pinnacle, and the Cards had to do the same thing with Kurt Warner. With free agency, and now especially with the end of the salary cap, nobody seems to want to wait for two to three seasons for a slow, plodding build-up to championship status.

When you stop and think about it, we're doing what just about everyone else is trying to do, the only difference is that we haven't been successful.

[Longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Len Pasquarelli basically said the same thing just after the trade for Donovan McNabb:



I've been thinking about this, because for a long time I've wanted to see this organization build from a foundation of young, promising players, stockpile draft picks, and essentially tough it out for a season or two while the young guys learn even if it means sucking it up with some losing seasons.

Clearly though, Shanahan and Allen don't see it that way. But then I thought, who really does anymore? When was the last time you saw a team truly blow everything up, start from scratch ? The Colts with Peyton Manning come to mind, back in 1998. They had an awful season in '97, wound up with the first overall pick, but put together a long term winner with Polian built mainly with draft picks and had a long, slow climb to the top.

I just don't think you see that anymore. The Saints brought in a free agent QB in Drew Brees that got them to pinnacle, and the Cards had to do the same thing with Kurt Warner. With free agency, and now especially with the end of the salary cap, nobody seems to want to wait for two to three seasons for a slow, plodding build-up to championship status.

When you stop and think about it, we're doing what just about everyone else is trying to do, the only difference is that we haven't been successful.

I agree......and to prove your point, most coaches in the game today only get a short period of time to develop their young players and win simultaneously. Coaches that are in a position where the pressuse is on to win or be gone feel the need to gravitate towards the older player in hopes of producing immediate results.

It always helps to have that established QB like in the Eagles case. Reid and McNabb have been together from the beginning, having that foundation has made it easier for them to year after year continue to add good young talent to an already productive nucleus.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Len Pasquarelli basically said the same thing just after the trade for Donovan McNabb:

All I want to say about developing young talent in the way that Pasquarelli wants teams to do is this, look at Minnesota. Minnesota has tons of young talent but it was worth a huge pile of sh*t with Tavarus Jackson under center. Thats what you get when you try to develop young talent that should not have been drafted anyhow...