What must Jim Zorn accomplish this season to keep his job?

[KI Skins Fan]

The primary reason I'm thinking about this is because there are four big-time former NFL coaches who will probably be looking to return to coaching next season and I don't think you-know-who can resist hiring a big-name Head Coach. The coaches to whom I'm referring are Bill Cowher, Jon Gruden, Mike Holmgren, and Mike Shanahan.

To try to answer my own question, I think that, at a minimum, Jim Zorn will need to take this team to the playoffs to keep his job. But that might not be enough. If we back into the playoffs as a wildcard and lose in the first round, I think that Zorn may still lose his job.

I'm suggesting that, with people who Dan Snyder will undoubtedly view as better coaches available, that the bar may be set unrealistically high for Jim Zorn this season.

Other than Zorn guiding the Skins to the second round of the playoffs, there is one other faint hope for DS retaining Zorn and thus maintaining continuity. That is, Snyder could hire Mike Holmgren in an executive capacity to oversee both Vinny and Jim Zorn and to serve as a close advisor to both of them. That might even work.

[CRedskinsRule]

I really don't want any of those four coaches here, and SFRedskins had said that San Fran was looking at Holmgren. Unless Zorn just fails completely this year, meaning primarily unable to adapt through the season, then I would want him to get at least this year and next.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I really don't want any of those four coaches here, and SFRedskins had said that San Fran was looking at Holmgren. Unless Zorn just fails completely this year, meaning primarily unable to adapt through the season, then I would want him to get at least this year and next.

I agree with you but I fear that Dan Snyder may lack the patience to stick with Zorn when there are big-name coaches available.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I agree with you but I fear that Dan Snyder may lack the patience to stick with Zorn when there are big-name coaches available.

Well, I suppose I ought to just agree to disagree now, before we have a long re-hash of the FO. But, dang it the urge is just primal.
3 comments/questions:

Can you show an example that backs up your fear? Every coach that has been fired, has been for cause, except Marty possibly.

When DS hired Zorn, he had to know that the guy had never even been an OC, and would need time to grow into the role.

a lot of naysayers that make the comment about DS firing Zorn, also seem to say that no big name coach will come here. (KI I don't know if you had held both those positions, but it seems to me that that is the typical line of people who generally dislike the FO). If the big 4 would not come here anyway, why would we not keep JZ.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

...

a lot of naysayers that make the comment about DS firing Zorn, also seem to say that no big name coach will come here. (KI I don't know if you had held both those positions, but it seems to me that that is the typical line of people who generally dislike the FO). If the big 4 would not come here anyway, why would we not keep JZ.

for an example of the above, please see next post in thread! LOL

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Can people PLEASE stop the Cowher talk??? He's not going to coach here. This man worked for the Rooney's who have one of the best operations going in the NFL. Why would he come and work for Snyder? As for the other guys the only one I could see coming here is Gruden. For the sake of continuity I hope Zorn doesn't get fired, regardless of how the season turns out.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Well, I suppose I ought to just agree to disagree now, before we have a long re-hash of the FO. But, dang it the urge is just primal.
3 comments/questions:

Can you show an example that backs up your fear? Every coach that has been fired, has been for cause, except Marty possibly.

When DS hired Zorn, he had to know that the guy had never even been an OC, and would need time to grow into the role.

a lot of naysayers that make the comment about DS firing Zorn, also seem to say that no big name coach will come here. (KI I don't know if you had held both those positions, but it seems to me that that is the typical line of people who generally dislike the FO). If the big 4 would not come here anyway, why would we not keep JZ.

I think that DS was rash in firing both Norv and Marty because he wanted a coach that he found more appealing (Marty and then Spurrier).

Norv took the team to the playoffs the year before he was fired when the Skins hosted a wildcard game and lost by only 1 point in the 2nd round. The year he was fired, the Skins lost a lot of close ones.

After making many changes, Marty took the team to an 8-8 record with Tony Banks at QB. The team was clearly on the upswing, but DS was in love with Spurrier.

I'm not a compulsive FO basher. I think Vinny and his staff are capable. I dislike the way in which DS appears to insert himself into personnel decisions.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I think that DS was rash in firing both Norv and Marty because he wanted a coach that he found more appealing (Marty and then Spurrier).

Norv took the team to the playoffs the year before he was fired when the Skins hosted a wildcard game and lost by only 1 point in the 2nd round. The year he was fired, the Skins lost a lot of close ones.

After making many changes, Marty took the team to an 8-8 record with Tony Banks at QB. The team was clearly on the upswing, but DS was in love with Spurrier.

I'm not a compulsive FO basher. I think Vinny and his staff are capable. I dislike the way in which DS appears to insert himself into personnel decisions.

Fair enough, I think Norv's firing at the time was imminent regardless of Marty. A funny thing about Marty is he had said on air he would never work for Snyder, maybe Danny felt a need for the challenge. As for Marty's firing, I agree that was a low moment, and DS should not have been rash like that. But still both those were early on, and I tend to think he has matured as an owner. Again, the only way we will know is time.

[BringBackJoeT]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I think that DS was rash in firing both Norv and Marty because he wanted a coach that he found more appealing (Marty and then Spurrier).

Norv took the team to the playoffs the year before he was fired when the Skins hosted a wildcard game and lost by only 1 point in the 2nd round. The year he was fired, the Skins lost a lot of close ones.

After making many changes, Marty took the team to an 8-8 record with Tony Banks at QB. The team was clearly on the upswing, but DS was in love with Spurrier.

I'm not a compulsive FO basher. I think Vinny and his staff are capable. I dislike the way in which DS appears to insert himself into personnel decisions.

We could probably do without another rehashing of the Norv drama, but my reaction is always knee-jerk when I see Snyder criticized for it. The fact is that Norv accomplished the not-so-common feat of keeping his job after failing to make the playoffs for five consecutive seasons (Jeff Fisher did too, but Norv hasn't accomplished anything in his post-Redskins days that would indicate that he was a Fisher in the making before getting axed). His teams consistently lost close games, and the environment at Redskins Park during his reign was, as Sonny consistently said, of the Club Med variety. He brought the team to the playoffs in year six, but only after Snyder told him that he was finally going to be accountable for the team's success (or lack thereof)--Norv did not have this fear during the two-plus years the ownership was in question after JKC's death. In year 7, the team was, yet again, underachieving, despite the chance it still had at a playoff berth. Most notably, during the game after which he was fired (the Giants game at FedEx), Pam Oliver reported on the sidelines the stark contrast in the Giants v. Redskins benches. She reported in the SECOND HALF that the Redskins bench was dead, while the Giants' bench was fired up. Blame the players if you will for their own failure to get fired up about a late season home game against a division rival with playoff implications, but there was nothing surprising about it given the team's head coach. For me, the most memorable incident in the Norv years was Marvcus Patton bitching out Gus on the sidelines in season opener against the Giants in the Meadowlands in 1998. Patton was tired of the failure of the coaching staff to get in a player's grill for stupid mistakes, and the guy had to take matters into his own hands.

I could go on, but as I said, this is really a very old story that could probably do without a rehashing. Simply put, the one thing I refuse to blame Snyder for is the firing of Norv. To me, that was the one brash/rash move he's made that I thought was completely justified.

[MdBluefinCrab]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Well, I suppose I ought to just agree to disagree now, before we have a long re-hash of the FO. But, dang it the urge is just primal.
3 comments/questions:

Can you show an example that backs up your fear? Every coach that has been fired, has been for cause, except Marty possibly.

When DS hired Zorn, he had to know that the guy had never even been an OC, and would need time to grow into the role.

a lot of naysayers that make the comment about DS firing Zorn, also seem to say that no big name coach will come here. (KI I don't know if you had held both those positions, but it seems to me that that is the typical line of people who generally dislike the FO). If the big 4 would not come here anyway, why would we not keep JZ.

And you should remember that Zorn was hired as the Offensive Coordinator, not the Head Coach. Only after every big name coach available turned down Dan Snyder did Jim Zorn get promoted to HC.
I like Jim Zorn but I don't think he has total control over who starts on this team, hence... the reason why Dan keeps getting turned down by more established coaches.

[redskinslick]

I agree,Cower & Shanahan were with there teams forever,and Green Bay stuck with Holmgren.They all need time,Gruden beat a QB that he coached up.Who knows were we would have gone with Mighty Marty,he certainly changed the culture at the time.I can understand how norv 7 years of bad luck can make it hard to weather the storm.Lets stick with our guy!!!

[Miller101]

Don't forget about Russ Grimm!

And I've said this before and I'll say it again................For Zorn to be successfull has to learn how to run the football and protect his quarterback. I know he was a quarterback at one time, but he should know that throwing the ball every time doesn't work. It never has. And if you are going to throw the ball he should know that the wide recievers need a few seconds to get open. So................you have to give Jason those few seconds. If you don't, then your system sucks and you should watch games on TV.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

The primary reason I'm thinking about this is because there are four big-time former NFL coaches who will probably be looking to return to coaching next season and I don't think you-know-who can resist hiring a big-name Head Coach. The coaches to whom I'm referring are Bill Cowher, Jon Gruden, Mike Holmgren, and Mike Shanahan.

To try to answer my own question, I think that, at a minimum, Jim Zorn will need to take this team to the playoffs to keep his job. But that might not be enough. If we back into the playoffs as a wildcard and lose in the first round, I think that Zorn may still lose his job.

I'm suggesting that, with people who Dan Snyder will undoubtedly view as better coaches available, that the bar may be set unrealistically high for Jim Zorn this season.

Other than Zorn guiding the Skins to the second round of the playoffs, there is one other faint hope for DS retaining Zorn and thus maintaining continuity. That is, Snyder could hire Mike Holmgren in an executive capacity to oversee both Vinny and Jim Zorn and to serve as a close advisor to both of them. That might even work.

Can people PLEASE stop the Cowher talk??? He's not going to coach here. This man worked for the Rooney's who have one of the best operations going in the NFL. Why would he come and work for Snyder? As for the other guys the only one I could see coming here is Gruden. For the sake of continuity I hope Zorn doesn't get fired, regardless of how the season turns out.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Can people PLEASE stop the Cowher talk??? He's not going to coach here. This man worked for the Rooney's who have one of the best operations going in the NFL. Why would he come and work for Snyder? As for the other guys the only one I could see coming here is Gruden. For the sake of continuity I hope Zorn doesn't get fired, regardless of how the season turns out.

Money.

[redskingrove]

Let's face the facts. Zorn as long as he improves should stay and this would obviously provide a more comfortable atmosphere for the players to develop in the offensive schemes. Too much change can build resistance and be devastating to any plan. Blache just carried on the prior years defensive scheme and it has kept us in the top 5 defenses for a couple of years now.
In the draft, we went defense to bolster our sack record. Our defense was ranked 4th overall which wasn't so aweful that we needed to address defense so much again this year, but the offensive line which provides a QB time to throw the big plays, or a RB to break the big plays was not really addressed except for a few small additions in free agency. This has put Zorn as a victim of DS and Vinny's ego of wanting notariety with defensive production. You may say that defenses win championships but that is not the entire truth. Without a strong offense to put points up on the board when the defense stalls an opposing offense, you'll still go nowhere and your D will eventually get tired thus giving up points.
The FO (DS and Vinny) have rolled the defensive dice to try and produce the winning edge. They saw other teams that went far into the playoffs and beyond and bought into the grand picture instead of seeing the whole needs in a championship team.

Keep Zorn and develop your players. Also give the offense (LINEMEN) talent to be more productive. The FO did it with the defense so why not the offense if winning is their top priority!

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by redskingrove

Let's face the facts. Zorn as long as he improves should stay and this would obviously provide a more comfortable atmosphere for the players to develop in the offensive schemes. Too much change can build resistance and be devastating to any plan. Blache just carried on the prior years defensive scheme and it has kept us in the top 5 defenses for a couple of years now.
In the draft, we went defense to bolster our sack record. Our defense was ranked 4th overall which wasn't so aweful that we needed to address defense so much again this year, but the offensive line which provides a QB time to throw the big plays, or a RB to break the big plays was not really addressed except for a few small additions in free agency. This has put Zorn as a victim of DS and Vinny's ego of wanting notariety with defensive production. You may say that defenses win championships but that is not the entire truth. Without a strong offense to put points up on the board when the defense stalls an opposing offense, you'll still go nowhere and your D will eventually get tired thus giving up points.
The FO (DS and Vinny) have rolled the defensive dice to try and produce the winning edge. They saw other teams that went far into the playoffs and beyond and bought into the grand picture instead of seeing the whole needs in a championship team.

Keep Zorn and develop your players. Also give the offense (LINEMEN) talent to be more productive. The FO did it with the defense so why not the offense if winning is their top priority!

Lets see we have CP who was ranked where in the NFL this year? The SB was won with how many points? Now Zorn is a victim? How do you know it was not Zorn giving the final OK to bring in players or who we drafted?