A Clarification on whether the Redskins are Re-Building

[GTripp0012]

Let's talk about re-building.

I want to know where you view your Washington Redskins in 2012. Whether you believed the Redskins were/were not rebuilding last year isn't relevant. Last year is in the past. What are your expectations for 2012? Through what lens are you trying to view this offseason?

On one hand, the Redskins are planning on rebuilding around young talent like Garcon, Hankerson, and Griffin. Maybe you don't think they have the pieces to compete in 2012 and that's okay: the Redskins aren't giving large contracts to players over the age of 27. They didn't last year, and they haven't this year. A targeted rebuilding project can be completed while core signings like Cofield, Bowen, Wilson, Garcon, and Morgan are under the age of 30. Maybe it doesn't matter that we're letting players walk when their rookie contracts are up: that's what rebuilding teams do.

On the other hand, can a rebuilding team really give up any and all future first rounders it has for the duration of the head coaches' contract? Isn't that the ultimate "cashing in the chips" move? And why use up the entirety of your cap space, whatever the number is, if you're rebuilding? The Redskins cashed in everything to build the best possible passing game they could have going into 2012; that doesn't strike one as patient or building.

But in the context of a multi-year rebuilding project? This might just be the most costly step in the process. No one said buying yourself a passing offense was cheap or easy.

Finally, do you think the Redskins even know if they're rebuilding or not? It seems like they could spin it either way at this point (lose = rebuilding, win = future is now!). I personally am tired of the front office spin though, I'd rather get YOUR perspective. So have at it.

[GusFrerotte]

Yeah, we are rebuilding still. Too many holes to fill in terms of starting caliber players, along with depth issues at O line and LB in my opinion. The gamble for RG III probably will pay off, but most likely hold back the team a year or two in finishing the process. We are moving in the right direction, but we could have used those 2 extra first rounders. I understand we desperately need a true starting caliber QB, but we paid a steep price to get him.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

Yeah, we are rebuilding still. Too many holes to fill in terms of starting caliber players, along with depth issues at O line and LB in my opinion. The gamble for RG III probably will pay off, but most likely hold back the team a year or two in finishing the process. We are moving in the right direction, but we could have used those 2 extra first rounders. I understand we desperately need a true starting caliber QB, but we paid a steep price to get him.

Would it be fair to say the cost to get RG3 won't be felt now (RG3 could be a huge upgrade to our offense even as a rookie), but much harder in 2013-2017?

If so, that would mean playoffs now are a lot more viable than playoffs in the near-term future.

I think our chances in 2012 and leaking into 2013 are as good as they are going to get until 2016, when we already have a good concept of what RG3 means to us.

We could be a perennial playoff team and NFC East contender, but that would require Griffin to be a 30 TD guy right from the start.

[Ruhskins]

I think the Redskins are finally rebuilding on offense (two years too late if you ask me). Last year to me, seemed like a rebuilding year for the defense. We have a lot of young players that hopefully can develop into starters (though some of them got starts last year due to injury), and hopefully we can pick up 6 more rookies (in addition to RG3) that can contribute to the team. I think we have done a good job at bringing in free agents under 30 years old for the most part this offseason and last offseason.

So far, it seems to me that the team has gone away from the win-now attitude. Although who knows what would have happened if we had not had the cap penalty. Still, I think we have a young team who won't be expected to do much this season, but has the potential to overachieve. I get the feeling that Snyder has given Shanahan and Bruce Allen a mulligan for the past two seasons. And that is a good thing, because we will definitely have a lot of growing pains this upcoming season.

Still, what I want to see from Shanahan is leadership. I don't want to see a team that gives up midway through the season. I don't want to see any more drama with players. And I want to see a competitive team on the field, and an improved offense. I think RG3's leadership will help and I think bringing back Fletch will help in the leadership department. This team has some talent, but I think they have been lacking from coaching/locker room leadership in the past two seasons. Hopefully this changes this season.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I think the Redskins are finally rebuilding on offense (two years too late if you ask me). Last year to me, seemed like a rebuilding year for the defense. We have a lot of young players that hopefully can develop into starters (though some of them got starts last year due to injury), and hopefully we can pick up 6 more rookies (in addition to RG3) that can contribute to the team. I think we have done a good job at bringing in free agents under 30 years old for the most part this offseason and last offseason.

So far, it seems to me that the team has gone away from the win-now attitude. Although who knows what would have happened if we had not had the cap penalty. Still, I think we have a young team who won't be expected to do much this season, but has the potential to overachieve. I get the feeling that Snyder has given Shanahan and Bruce Allen a mulligan for the past two seasons. And that is a good thing, because we will definitely have a lot of growing pains this upcoming season.

I'm definitely in this camp. To answer GTripp's question literally, are we rebuilding, yes. By rebuilding the inference is that we are not a Super Bowl contender at this point which I don't really think is up for debate. However, I expect to see the most talented and most balanced Redskin team since 2007 on the field next year and a much improved product than in recent seasons.

I'm not really of the belief that the RGIII trade has crippled our chances to improve over the next 3 off seasons. That mentality is rooted in the belief that we will still be a 4-7 win team and picking in the upper 1/3 of the draft. I'm not discounting the value of first round picks but they are not a guarantee of success. We still have plenty of picks over the next three years to build a legitimate contender, assuming RGIII is what he appears to be. It's been so long since we've had quality at that position, we forget how much an elite QB can raise the performance of the overall team.

To answer the final question, yes, I think there is a plan and has been since 2010. 2010 evaluate the roster and start the 3-4 transition, try to win with core players plus a couple of additions. 2011 focus on building a playoff defense through the draft and free agency. 2012 focus on building a playoff offense, focusing on skill positions (that's why I don't think an early pick on a RB is out of the question) and specify areas of need. The cap penalties probably derailed our full plan this offseason but we targeted players to address one of our major shortcomings in recent years, team speed and explosive players.

I've been saying since late 2011 and into the early offseason, my evaluation of Shanahan starts this season. He was playing with Zorn's roster in 2010 and was hindered by a lockout in 2011. Now he's built his defense and his offense, let's see what he does with them.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

To answer the final question, yes, I think there is a plan and has been since 2010. 2010 evaluate the roster and start the 3-4 transition, try to win with core players plus a couple of additions. 2011 focus on building a playoff defense through the draft and free agency. 2012 focus on building a playoff offense, focusing on skill positions (that's why I don't think an early pick on a RB is out of the question) and specify areas of need. The cap penalties probably derailed our full plan this offseason but we targeted players to address one of our major shortcomings in recent years, team speed and explosive players.

How would you rectify this outline with Shanahan's belief that he had already built a playoff offense his first two years here, and then obviously the talent upgrades from the 2012 draft?

Your outline seems to suggest that multiple issues have been targeted then solved, but I'm not even sure the Redskins ever correctly identified what was causing the losing. It seems like after the failure in 2010, they just attributed it to being too old/prone to injury/lacking in depth to compete in the modern NFL. So then they overhauled the roster with younger players, and when that didn't solve the problems, they attributed it again to injury.

I suppose its possible that the attribution is correct and that the annual injury problem was fixed by the 2011 (and 2012) youth injection, and that last years continuation of pretty much every problem from the last eight years was a coincidence. It's at least possible that Mike Shanahan is the genius and we're the fools who didn't see that he fixed every problem with the franchise during a 5-11 season. But on the other side of the coin is the chance that Shanahan was never right about where the problems were, and that youth can't cure the problems with the training staff and the coaching staff.

Am I wrong in that suggesting that any plan that follows the pattern that you suggest here necessarily requires that Mike Shanahan understood most or all the issues with the team from the beginning? But then you go to mid-season last year and post-2011 and comments at least suggest that he was off (by a lot) in his assumptions (and willing to admit that -- to a degree).

I think your plan to rebuild the franchise would be very rational in hindsight, I just don't think it's particularly relevant to what has actually occurred with the Redskins the last two years.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

How would you rectify this outline with Shanahan's belief that he had already built a playoff offense his first two years here, and then obviously the talent upgrades from the 2012 draft?

Mendacity, son, mendacity! Mr. Mike simply didn't tell us the truth. He knew he didn't have a playoff offense, just like he knew that Grossman and Beck couldn't get the job done at QB.

You seem to think that Mike Shanahan lacks the ability to realistically evaluate the talent on his team. I don't. I just think that he doesn't mind telling a few fibs about what he thinks of the talent level on his team.

For some reason I don't understand, the entire Redskins management team refuses to admit that they are rebuilding.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

Mendacity, son, mendacity! Mr. Mike simply didn't tell us the truth. He knew he didn't have a playoff offense, just like he knew that Grossman and Beck couldn't get the job done at QB.

You seem to think that Mike Shanahan lacks the ability to realistically evaluate the talent on his team. I don't. I just think that he doesn't mind telling a few fibs about what he thinks of the talent level on his team.

For some reason I don't understand, the entire Redskins management team refuses to admit that they are rebuilding.

I would suggest that Mike is totally okay lying to the fans, but his quote about the "playoff-caliber" offense was, in context, unprompted. Larry Michael's question was open-ended, and asked how Mike Shanahan might go about improving the offense.

This was before 3 first round picks and a 2nd got traded to move up four spots, so obviously, that would have been a sufficient answer to the question. A simple "oh, you'll see" does the trick.

So EVEN if we assume that the playoff-caliber offense was a rehearsed line meant simply to project confidence instead of actual football acumen, then at very least, he was too cavalier about using it when he wasn't prompted.

It's Larry Michael. He wasn't trying to get Shanahan to admit his son's offense sucks.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'm definitely in this camp. To answer GTripp's question literally, are we rebuilding, yes. By rebuilding the inference is that we are not a Super Bowl contender at this point which I don't really think is up for debate. However, I expect to see the most talented and most balanced Redskin team since 2007 on the field next year and a much improved product than in recent seasons.

I'm not really of the belief that the RGIII trade has crippled our chances to improve over the next 3 off seasons. That mentality is rooted in the belief that we will still be a 4-7 win team and picking in the upper 1/3 of the draft. I'm not discounting the value of first round picks but they are not a guarantee of success. We still have plenty of picks over the next three years to build a legitimate contender, assuming RGIII is what he appears to be. It's been so long since we've had quality at that position, we forget how much an elite QB can raise the performance of the overall team.

To answer the final question, yes, I think there is a plan and has been since 2010. 2010 evaluate the roster and start the 3-4 transition, try to win with core players plus a couple of additions. 2011 focus on building a playoff defense through the draft and free agency. 2012 focus on building a playoff offense, focusing on skill positions (that's why I don't think an early pick on a RB is out of the question) and specify areas of need. The cap penalties probably derailed our full plan this offseason but we targeted players to address one of our major shortcomings in recent years, team speed and explosive players.

I've been saying since late 2011 and into the early offseason, my evaluation of Shanahan starts this season. He was playing with Zorn's roster in 2010 and was hindered by a lockout in 2011. Now he's built his defense and his offense, let's see what he does with them.

Solid post, though kinder to Mike than is deserved. Our coaches gameday preparation/performance has been underwhelming, disappointing for a SB winning HC and "up-and-coming" OC. I fully understand talent was limited, especially on offense, but limited talent does not preclude the coaches ability to teach a 2 min drill, overall tempo and general gameday preparedness.

Whether we're rebuilding or looking to win now is almost moot at this point, unless our gameday prep/performance from players certainly, but coaches especially, improves dramatically off-season strategy is totally irrelavent.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I think the Redskins are finally rebuilding on offense (two years too late if you ask me). Last year to me, seemed like a rebuilding year for the defense. We have a lot of young players that hopefully can develop into starters (though some of them got starts last year due to injury), and hopefully we can pick up 6 more rookies (in addition to RG3) that can contribute to the team. I think we have done a good job at bringing in free agents under 30 years old for the most part this offseason and last offseason.

So far, it seems to me that the team has gone away from the win-now attitude. Although who knows what would have happened if we had not had the cap penalty. Still, I think we have a young team who won't be expected to do much this season, but has the potential to overachieve. I get the feeling that Snyder has given Shanahan and Bruce Allen a mulligan for the past two seasons. And that is a good thing, because we will definitely have a lot of growing pains this upcoming season.

What you wrote is in synch with my views. I have felt all along that the team has been rebuilding under Shanahan (even though MS avoids using the term rebuilding) and that it would take two free agency periods and two drafts
to begin to see the results on the field.

I think that what was done to acquire a Franchse QB had to be done if we were ever to become perennial contenders. If it turns out that we are able to draft a QB who becomes great, then the price will be worth it, although the loss of two first round picks and a second round pick could set back the timetable for our going deep into the playoffs.

I agree with you that the trade with the Rams has probably given MS more time to complete the rebuilding job. But would add the caveat that the team must play a more exciting brand of football in 2012 and become a team that nobody really wants to play for fear of being upset. I think that should be enough to satisfy Dan Snyder, for now.

It seems to me that by hitting the Skins with a whopping $30M cap penalty the day before the opening of FA, the NFL must have put a crimp in the Skins plans for acquiring impact FA's this year. I assume that Dan Snyder will understand the harm that must have done to MS's plans, as well.

I'm hoping that rebuilding is now acceptable to Dan Snyder and that DS has developed the requisite patience that goes with it. A change of direction at this point would be a disaster.

[mooby]

I'm not really getting caught up in it because their moves don't indicate a clear path in one direction, but I think they decided trading up for the #2 was the best option because they didn't want to go into next season with a combo of 2nd rate talents. I think they briefly flirted with the idea of bringing Manning in, but that was out once Manning decided he didn't want to come here.

So they realized the qb options were drying up quickly, and they also realized if they didn't get an elite prospect in here this season and we had another bad season, patience probably would've ran out and Snyder would've let them go. So they gambled big and now are hedging their bets on whichever rookie qb we pick (prob. Griffin). I think they have an idea of the direction they want to go in, but they aren't strictly abiding by the rules of that plan. It's more just a loose direction they want to go in.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by mooby

I'm not really getting caught up in it because their moves don't indicate a clear path in one direction, but I think they decided trading up for the #2 was the best option because they didn't want to go into next season with a combo of 2nd rate talents. I think they briefly flirted with the idea of bringing Manning in, but that was out once Manning decided he didn't want to come here.

So they realized the qb options were drying up quickly, and they also realized if they didn't get an elite prospect in here this season and we had another bad season, patience probably would've ran out and Snyder would've let them go. So they gambled big and now are hedging their bets on whichever rookie qb we pick (prob. Griffin). I think they have an idea of the direction they want to go in, but they aren't strictly abiding by the rules of that plan. It's more just a loose direction they want to go in.

I think you're probably right on every point here. But without trying to get you caught up in it, where would you predict their next move is, if you had to guess: towards 2012, or towards 2013-2016?

[mooby]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think you're probably right on every point here. But without trying to get you caught up in it, where would you predict their next move is, if you had to guess: towards 2012, or towards 2013-2016?

I would say towards 2013-2016. The free agents we've brought in that are expected to make significant contributions (i.e. not Cedric Griffin) are mostly in their mid 20's with room for improvement. With Griffin/Luck in the fold I think as of now they are setting themselves up for an average season this year, with the hope that maybe they'll exceed expectations, and then in 2013 we should have solidified the roster enough that we will expect to contend for the playoffs.

I think when Shanny originally came on board, he didn't expect it to take this long and be as troublesome as it has (which he has already admitted). This is probably his revised plan of action (as far as how many revisions this plan has had, I have no idea lol.). But I don't mind it, because I do believe that if Griffin pans out like we expect him to, nobody, other than the serial naysayers, will be complaining about the price we paid to get him. I've never had the opportunity to witness this team with a bona fide stud qb under center before, and I'm excited to see how much better that will make our team.

[GusFrerotte]

To even think playoffs before 2014 would be iffy to me. Not only did we lose the two first rounders, we lost a second rounder as well, so one of these upcoming drafts we will probably not yield any starting material, unless we get a Cooley type gem in the late rounds.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

To even think playoffs before 2014 would be iffy to me. Not only did we lose the two first rounders, we lost a second rounder as well, so one of these upcoming drafts we will probably not yield any starting material, unless we get a Cooley type gem in the late rounds.

Perry Riley, Roy Helu, Leonard Hankerson, Jarvins Jenkins, and Evan Royster are all players acquired after the first round in the past two seasons that have the potential to be starters. While it is terrible that we don't have our first rounders in 2013 and 2014, I don't see why we can't acquire a starter in the mid rounds during those two years.