The Portis move in hindsight

[SouperMeister]

My biggest complaint with the trade was Gibbs's willingness to toss in a high 2nd round pick (that ended up being Tatum Bell). True shutdown corners capable of holding their own without help are MUCH harder to come by than great running backs. If anything, Denver should have been giving us extra draft choices.

[freddyg12]

This was overall a bad trade, but we got a team leader & great player from it, who also seems to like being here & carrying on the tradition of redskins players that love the spotlight.
I'm tired of the 'Champ didn't want to be here' line. While it's true, we still had more leverage as someone pointed out earlier. We could've franchised him & waited for the right offer, i.e. not given up a 2nd rnd. pick.
Or we could've kept him here in GW's D & let Gibbs try & convince him that the team is headin in the right direction. So he was unhappy, how many people are unhappy w/their job for periods of time, but stay & eventually like it? Lots.
Champ is still the best & a top cb is harder to find than a good rb. I always thought Betts could carry the load. Of course, we'd need to draft a backup as he's been hurt, but its not hard to find a solid backup in rnds. 3-6.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by jdlea

4.1 yards per carry for his career isn't exactly playing well. Niether are the 2 td's he's amassed this season...giving him 8 total for his career.

Listen. I'm not saying Betts is better than Portis cause he's not. All I'm trying to say is that you can win with Betts as your starting RB. But you have to give the guy a chance to come into his own. Has Betts ever had the chance to be the full time starter here? No. He has only been a back-up. Players need to mature and sometimes it takes some players longer than others. That 4.1 yards per carry means nothing. When Portis came here he was averaging over 5 yards per carry. I know it's gone down since he has come here. Does that mean Portis isn't as good as he use to be? No. So don't judge a guy buy that stat. And the 2 TD's? He's not going to score as much as Portis becasue Portis has had the majority of the carries. Judge Betts TD totals at the end of the season.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

This was overall a bad trade, but we got a team leader & great player from it, who also seems to like being here & carrying on the tradition of redskins players that love the spotlight.
I'm tired of the 'Champ didn't want to be here' line. While it's true, we still had more leverage as someone pointed out earlier. We could've franchised him & waited for the right offer, i.e. not given up a 2nd rnd. pick.
Or we could've kept him here in GW's D & let Gibbs try & convince him that the team is headin in the right direction. So he was unhappy, how many people are unhappy w/their job for periods of time, but stay & eventually like it? Lots.
Champ is still the best & a top cb is harder to find than a good rb. I always thought Betts could carry the load. Of course, we'd need to draft a backup as he's been hurt, but its not hard to find a solid backup in rnds. 3-6.

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

My biggest complaint with the trade was Gibbs's willingness to toss in a high 2nd round pick (that ended up being Tatum Bell). True shutdown corners capable of holding their own without help are MUCH harder to come by than great running backs. If anything, Denver should have been giving us extra draft choices.

Please read the prior 5 pages and see everyone's thoughts on this....

[MTK]

I just wanted to clear something up regarding Betts and his fumbles. I've seen a lot of people implying that he fumbles a lot, so I did some number crunching to see if he really is fumble prone.

In his career to date Betts has 634 total touches, this includes rushes, receptions and kick returns. Out of these 634 touches he's fumbled 8 times, or once every 79.25 touches.

To compare, Portis to date in his career has a total of 1543 touches. He's fumbled 16 times or once every 96.4 touches.

Now if you want someone who really is fumble prone, look at Ricky Williams who averages one fumble per 57.2 touches.

While one of the best in the league right now is LT. He only puts in on the ground once every 163.25 touches.

Another example is Tiki Barber who over the last 3 years has really shored up his fumble problems and is one of the better backs in the league now at not fumbling. Over the last 3 years he only gives it up once every 120 touches.

My conclusion is Betts is pretty average, he's not bad enough to call fumble prone in my opinion.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

All I'm trying to say is that you can win with Betts as your starting RB.

I've said this before about this same subject... The Washington Redskins are 2-6 when Ladell Betts starts. What is your proof or even logic for that comment?

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Listen. I'm not saying Betts is better than Portis cause he's not. All I'm trying to say is that you can win with Betts as your starting RB. But you have to give the guy a chance to come into his own. Has Betts ever had the chance to be the full time starter here? No. He has only been a back-up. Players need to mature and sometimes it takes some players longer than others. That 4.1 yards per carry means nothing. When Portis came here he was averaging over 5 yards per carry. I know it's gone down since he has come here. Does that mean Portis isn't as good as he use to be? No. So don't judge a guy buy that stat. And the 2 TD's? He's not going to score as much as Portis becasue Portis has had the majority of the carries. Judge Betts TD totals at the end of the season.

Okay...Betts has 1 td in 3 starts. Portis played in 9 games and had 7 tds. Betts has played in all of those and scored twice. Clinton for his career is still averaging 4.7 a carry, so he really hasn't fallen off that much.

Also, Betts got here before Clinton, if he were so good he would have been the guy then. Part of the reason he never got the chance to start is cause, like I said, he CAN'T STAY HEALTHY.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I've said this before about this same subject... The Washington Redskins are 2-6 when Ladell Betts starts. What is your proof or even logic for that comment?

In all fairness the games he's started haven't exactly been when the team was firing on all cylinders. He's starting for a bad team right now.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

In all fairness the games he's started haven't exactly been when the team was firing on all cylinders. He's starting for a bad team right now.

That's all well and good, but how is that any different from someone saying that the Redskins can win with Patrick Ramsey? The numbers say that both of those statements are false.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by jdlea

It's hard to say why they're not very good right now. I mean, seriously, they went to the playoffs last season. Tell me what you would have done differently this offseason or come up with something that could have actually happened then. Keeping Champ was out of the question. We've shown you tons of reasons why Betts couldn't have been the #1. Come up with a real reason why the trade shouldn't have happened.

Well for one I would not have given a 3rd rounder for Brunell. Again that's a potential starter. Try and get Brunell after he was cut and save the draft pick, ( becasue he was going to be cut) then offer him more than anyone else. I also would not try and play AC as an everydown 4-3 end. He's not big enough to hold up against the run. As for Bailey? He wanted out. Fine. Get him outta here. But try your best to get the better of the deal. Wasn't Casserly down in Houston at the time? Cassery drafted him so try and make a deal with him? Anyone. Just make sure you get the better of the deal. Get multiple draft picks for him so you set yourself up for the future. Run it like NE does. Do you think NE would ever get rid of a guy and not get fair value? No. Look how they handled Deion Branch? Rocky M. Gave up a 2nd rounder just to move up and pick the guy? If you do that then make the guy the starter right away and deal with his mistakes. Meanwhile he's on the bench and the 2nd rounder is gone. Look, I could go on and on. But the bottom line is the lack of draft picks are killing the team now. All the money is invested in the front line players. In other words the team is too top heavy.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

That's all well and good, but how is that any different from someone saying that the Redskins can win with Patrick Ramsey? The numbers say that both of those statements are false.

It's tough to make a direct comparison across two positions like that.

You could argue it either way I guess. It's true Ramsey wasn't on very good teams either.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I've said this before about this same subject... The Washington Redskins are 2-6 when Ladell Betts starts. What is your proof or even logic for that comment?

Sorry but your point is not very good. How are you going to blame Betts when TB tramples our defense?

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Well for one I would not have given a 3rd rounder for Brunell. Again that's a potential starter. Try and get Brunell after he was cut and save the draft pick, ( becasue he was going to be cut) then offer him more than anyone else. I also would not try and play AC as an everydown 4-3 end. He's not big enough to hold up against the run. As for Bailey? He wanted out. Fine. Get him outta here. But try your best to get the better of the deal. Wasn't Casserly down in Houston at the time? Cassery drafted him so try and make a deal with him? Anyone. Just make sure you get the better of the deal. Get multiple draft picks for him so you set yourself up for the future. Run it like NE does. Do you think NE would ever get rid of a guy and not get fair value? No. Look how they handled Deion Branch? Rocky M. Gave up a 2nd rounder just to move up and pick the guy? If you do that then make the guy the starter right away and deal with his mistakes. Meanwhile he's on the bench and the 2nd rounder is gone. Look, I could go on and on. But the bottom line is the lack of draft picks are killing the team now. All the money is invested in the front line players. In other words the team is too top heavy.

That's a very good post. I actually agree with most of what you said. However, I think getting Portis for Champ and a 2 was a good deal. Champ wasn't coming back and that meant teams could hold out on the Skins and tell them "we'll wait till you get rid of him." The way the team was being run then, they wouldn't have let dead cap space get rid of a guy. I don't think they could have made a much better deal. I wouldn't have gotten Brunell at all, but that's up for discussion. Also, Carter had a good game last week, maybe he'll come around.

I agree that they need to keep some draft picks and stop signing so many front line guys.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by jdlea

While we're basing things on the Houston game...let's put Brunell back in!

Hey, I'm looking at stats of games played, to refute the notion that Betts has had "one good game". The fact is, he historically runs well when he gets carries comparable with a starting NFL RB. When he gets 5-10 carries in a game, of course he's not going to blow anybody's skirt up.

When he gets opportunities, he has taken advantage of them.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Sorry but your point is not very good. How are you going to blame Betts when TB tramples our defense?

My point isn't very good? You said that the Redskins can win with Betts, and yet, history has show that the Redskins lose 75% of the time when Betts starts. How is my point not very good?

And I blame Betts for the Tampa game for the fumble he gave away on a potential scoring drive.