Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by dmek25

right now my insurance company dictates to the doctors how much they will pay for certain procedures. they also dictate what procedures are necessary, and those that aren't. this is definitely NOT good thing.

Under a universal health care system run by the government, wouldn't the government be dictating what operations were necessary? If not and the government would leave it up to the doctors, wouldn't the number of operations jump along with the tax burden?

[dmek25]

im not sure what the answer is. but i know its not working the way it is right now

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by dmek25

im not sure what the answer is. but i know its not working the way it is right now

Well, that's kinda the point. There is no simple answer and there may be no answer at all other than to tweak the current system.

Any replacement system is going to run into different problems of varying degrees. Any attempt to inject the government as more than regulatory oversight (i.e. make it the sole insurer) is simply going to create as many, if not more, problems than it resolves.

The system is not great - it has gaps and inefficiencies, but the same can be said of any health care system out there. Particularly on the scale of service required by the US. Essentially, it's not great but it could be a hell of lot worse (just like our legal system).

[12thMan]

Well, there are a lot of moving pieces to this. But I think just to keep it simple, the new plan isn't so much concerned about dictating or telling doctors how many or what surgeries to perform, but rather give the underinsured and the uninsured access to preventative healthcare and if needed, surgery. So yes, to SGG's question, I would imagine because you now have more people covered under the new plan and more people being able to now afford healthcare, the number of surgeries would indeed go up.

However, the potential costs or tax burden of this will be shared by the states, local and federal government, employers and the insurance providers themselves. One other thing to keep in mind, the costs of doing business is one of the big reasons our healthcare is so expensive. For instance, many patient records are still being maintained on paper. The plan is to transition and automate a lot of the record keeping and other administrative functions to reign in costs.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by dmek25

im not sure what the answer is. but i know its not working the way it is right now

Agreed.

Another point that I don't think has come up yet is our system needs to become more proactive and less reactive.

So many problems could be greatly reduced if a greater push were made towards preventing things like obesity and smoking. Our youth is having more health issues in regard to obesity than ever before, this is something that needs to be addressed at a very early age.

I think we're starting to see some progress as more and more schools are offering healthier lunch programs and pushing out the soft drink machines and junk food, but I think a lot more can and needs to be done in this area.

[FRPLG]

One of my biggest concerns with universal healthcare is that I am completely unconvinced that our government, or any government for that matter, can adequately manage what is probably the most complex market there is. Despite what lots of people say all these universal healthcare countries do not have some type of panacae system. They all have problems in some way. And they ARE NOT cheap. People pay insane amounts of taxes for them.

Our system is just as broke, if not more, but it is broken because of so many things. The issues are mind-boggling in their complexity. And the solutions will have to be even more complex and drastic to fix it. Plain and simple it would be a program never rivaled in US history and based on the empirical evidence our government cannot handle it. Conversely, while private industry has screwed the pooch so far, I do think that with proper laws and regulations as well as effective oversight the private industry CAN fix the system. And way faster than the government could.

Some people look at this being a for profit industry and think that is bad. I tend to think the fact that it is for profit is the only thing that can fix it. Free market, for profit industry is the best way to motivate an efficient system. The problem is we need to figure out how to change it so that the profits are made without reducing service. Consolidation and managed care as the culprits because they have effectively removed actual competition from the market. We need to make the system competitive again. That should increase service and decrease cost. How this gets done? I have no idea and I guess no one else does either.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Agreed.

Another point that I don't think has come up yet is our system needs to become more proactive and less reactive.

So many problems could be greatly reduced if a greater push were made towards preventing things like obesity and smoking. Our youth is having more health issues in regard to obesity than ever before, this is something that needs to be addressed at a very early age.

I think we're starting to see some progress as more and more schools are offering healthier lunch programs and pushing out the soft drink machines and junk food, but I think a lot more can and needs to be done in this area.

100%

This is a cultural thing that will take some time to get ingrained into our society but once prevention becomes part of our culture we should see some benefits.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Free market, for profit industry is the best way to motivate an efficient system.

Absolutely. 100% agree with this. Take a look at just about any private sector product that offers competition. The product and service is much better than any monopolistic industry. You want me to buy it? make it better than the other guy. You really want me to buy it? Make it better and cheaper.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Just so I'm clear - you think it is larcenous for the doctor and the hospital to charge you 40K? If so, do you think they would charge less in a government controlled health care system? Do you advocate price controls in all areas or just health care? Who will decide the appropriate charges? How will they insure that competent people will want to enter an industry requiring long hours, extensive (years) training, incredibly high liability risk and still manage to make a good living?

Your right on look at the terrorist attacks that just failed over seas. Part of the reason this happened is beacause they have a hugh doctor shortage and were allowing in thousands of doctors to fill those needs. So in the rush to do so the terrorist saw an open door and took advantage of the situation.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Agreed.

Another point that I don't think has come up yet is our system needs to become more proactive and less reactive.

So many problems could be greatly reduced if a greater push were made towards preventing things like obesity and smoking. Our youth is having more health issues in regard to obesity than ever before, this is something that needs to be addressed at a very early age.

I think we're starting to see some progress as more and more schools are offering healthier lunch programs and pushing out the soft drink machines and junk food, but I think a lot more can and needs to be done in this area.

Schools back when I went in the 70's and 80's sold nothing but junk food and we did not have an obesity problems like todays kids.Even at home we ate more fried food and high fat foods and go back and look at what our grandparents ate all the time. Maybe the parents should be parents and cut off the TV, computers, video games and get the kids up and moving around. Speaking of kids when I was 10 years old or around that age I would cut grass and stuff like that to make a buck. When was the last time you had a kid come by and ask to do some odd jobs?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Schools back when I went in the 70's and 80's sold nothing but junk food and we did not have an obesity problems like todays kids.Even at home we ate more fried food and high fat foods and go back and look at what our grandparents ate all the time. Maybe the parents should be parents and cut off the TV, computers, video games and get the kids up and moving around. Speaking of kids when I was 10 years old or around that age I would cut grass and stuff like that to make a buck. When was the last time you had a kid come by and ask to do some odd jobs?

When I was in school in the 80's and early 90's we had very little junk food and only one vending machine, and that machine only had juice in it.

Things have gotten much worse since then, as evident by recent efforts to push the junk food out of schools.

You mention they aren't getting enough exercise and I totally agree, but again that's something that can start at an early age at school as well.

When I was in school we had gym class 2-3 days per week, but I've heard of schools where gym classes are optional.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i disagree with this. with the kind of outrageous money the people in the medical field make, if they screw me up, i want paid. no, it wont make me better. but it might make them think twice about operating on my left leg, when the problems in my right leg.

Yah, I hear you D.
The deal for me is the amounts put on this type of thing and the legitimacy of same. If I'm your patient, and you mess me up, there needs to be some sort of calc for deriving a reasonable solution. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that exists today.
Granted, it blows when something happens to someone you care about in a negligent manner. There should be punitive action of some kind taken against the doc. There should be some kind of compensation to the victim or their family, depending on the severity. In this case, I think reason has left the building.
I don;t think doc's in general don't make the scratch they used to. At least I think they have to hussle a lot more to get it. Be part of a group referring to there own specialists, therapists, testing facilities, etc.
I was part of a business bringing up a small group of doc's for cosmetic stuff a few years ago, and I was shocked. We quit taking most ins, as we could not get anything for our services. I'm not saying doc's are not living pretty good, but ai don't think most of them enjoy the wealth many people think.
The system needs to be stripped down and start over. it is killing itself

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

When I was in school in the 80's and early 90's we had very little junk food and only one vending machine, and that machine only had juice in it.

Things have gotten much worse since then, as evident by recent efforts to push the junk food out of schools.

You mention they aren't getting enough exercise and I totally agree, but again that's something that can start at an early age at school as well.

When I was in school we had gym class 2-3 days per week, but I've heard of schools where gym classes are optional.

Matty our difference in how we look at thing is you think goverment is the answer and I feel people need to take more responsibiltity for themself. I agree that it may help some to remove the junk food from the schools but that is such a small part of the problem. Its like the parents blamming fast food for their childs weight problem while sitting in line at Burger King. The school I attened had all those junk food machines.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Matty our difference in how we look at thing is you think goverment is the answer and I feel people need to take more responsibiltity for themself. I agree that it may help some to remove the junk food from the schools but that is such a small part of the problem. Its like the parents blamming fast food for their childs weight problem while sitting in line at Burger King. The school I attened had all those junk food machines.

I never said the gov't is the answer, I think you're correct as well. I think schools AND parents need to do a better job. If people took more responsibility for their own situations we wouldn't have the problems that we do. I think at times people need some guidance and examples to follow, and if that means the gov't and/or schools stepping in and providing that I'm all for it.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by dmek25

those guys are all at least making six figures. i know it takes a tremendous amount of schooling, but they are getting paid for what they know. its their responsibility to get it right

You act like all medical care is black and white. I have problem with Drs who have been negligent getting punished but an awful lot of good honest Drs get sued for dubious reasons. Pretending that anyone is going to do their job with 100% efficacy is silly.