Start John Beck Madness Thread

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

If today didn't provide enough evidence that Beck can't make the throws necessary to lead the offense

It sure didn't for me.
I expect a nervous/amped up back-up in Beck shoes to look shaky early, the dude is basically a rookie albeit a few season removed.
But, you gotta admit he made some nice throws, some clutch throws.
He showed his mobility and he made some plays to avoid sacks.

..............."I hope we have fewer turnovers than touchdowns." Such is the only standard in which Beck can achieve success.

I'm note sure how anyone can know Beck's ceiling? He could on be safe game managers don't 'screw it up' type QB or he could be an Andy Dalson/Ryan Fitpatrick.

[pg86]

Originally Posted by 30gut

It sure didn't for me.
I expect a nervous/amped up back-up in Beck shoes to look shaky early, the dude is basically a rookie albeit a few season removed.
But, you gotta admit he made some nice throws, some clutch throws.
He showed his mobility and he made some plays to avoid sacks.

I'm note sure how anyone can know Beck's ceiling? He could on be safe game managers don't 'screw it up' type QB or he could be an Andy Dalson/Ryan Fitpatrick.

Im sorta with you 30gut...What in the hell have we seen from beck to make this assesment that he's not gonna be better than rex?

Hey History of this team shows we just need a guy that can manage the game and run the playbook there are only 2 QB's in the Hall from this team correct? And Most of us weren't around to see them play (if you are old enough to remember Sammy Baugh I'd love to know your longevity secrets) Beck tossed up a few game equalizers our recievers needed to hold on. If anything I'd say we inserted him a wee bit too late....The test is next week...If Beck comes out and plays like Mr.Brady were gonna haave to eat alot of crow here.

Grossman is done.....if Beck does bad I suppose we'll see Crompton (did he make the roster?)

[Bucket]

I'm with you two as well. Nobody knows this guys limits yet

[CultBrennan59]

If I'm Shanahan I'm not even hesitating with Beck. I'm playing him next week, against a crappy panthers defense. But of course I have a bad feeling that he'll start Grossman again over him.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Bucket

I'm with you two as well. Nobody knows this guys limits yet

except the 2 teams that cut him and the 3 that didn't want him to start for them.


I think he's different, but I don't think he's necessarily any better. more mobile, less mistake prone, but his accuracy was AWFUL, missing wide open guys by 4 or 5 feet.

If MS wants to start beck that's fine, I don't think anyone could second guess that, I just don't think it's going to matter in the long run. both of these guys are 30 and neither of them is the answer, we've already seen enough to know that.

ponder looked better than either one of these guys today.

[WilbursHomie]

Two plusses to playing Beck. 1.) He won't play as bad a Grossman has. That's huge. He's not Tom Brady, hell, he's not Colt McCoy, but he'll manage the game. He may throw a pic first play, but he wont play like he thinks he's a lot more talented than he is like butt hole Rex Grossman. And 2.) and this one is kind of pathetic but, with Becks weak arm, maybe our OC will have less confidence in him and run the ball more. I just dont understand Mike and Kyle's obsession with Rex. He's a mediocre qb at best. Quit treating him like Joe Montana.

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by That Guy

except the 2 teams that cut him and the 3 that didn't want him to start for them.


I think he's different, but I don't think he's necessarily any better. more mobile, less mistake prone, but his accuracy was AWFUL, missing wide open guys by 4 or 5 feet.

If MS wants to start beck that's fine, I don't think anyone could second guess that, I just don't think it's going to matter in the long run. both of these guys are 30 and neither of them is the answer, we've already seen enough to know that.

ponder looked better than either one of these guys today.

If history says anything then you really can't know till the guy gets' his "chance". A lot of QB's are deemed average and have above average careers. Alex Smith looks like the second coming of Steve Young in San Fran now, when for the past 5 years he's been considered a asset to the team.

You just never know, and the Redskins wont know untill next week and later in the season if Beck can give them some great years here. If he turns out good, I wont be saying "I told you so" because I don't have a clue to how this guy will pan out.

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by WilbursHomie

Two plusses to playing Beck. 1.) He won't play as bad a Grossman has. That's huge. He's not Tom Brady, hell, he's not Colt McCoy, but he'll manage the game. He may throw a pic first play, but he wont play like he thinks he's a lot more talented than he is like butt hole Rex Grossman. And 2.) and this one is kind of pathetic but, with Becks weak arm, maybe our OC will have less confidence in him and run the ball more. I just dont understand Mike and Kyle's obsession with Rex. He's a mediocre qb at best. Quit treating him like Joe Montana.

I don't agree.. I think Rex's arm is overrated. Beck has the better arm of the two QB's in my opinion and a faster release.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by WilbursHomie

Two plusses to playing Beck. 1.) He won't play as bad a Grossman has. That's huge. He's not Tom Brady, hell, he's not Colt McCoy, but he'll manage the game. He may throw a pic first play, but he wont play like he thinks he's a lot more talented than he is like butt hole Rex Grossman. And 2.) and this one is kind of pathetic but, with Becks weak arm, maybe our OC will have less confidence in him and run the ball more. I just dont understand Mike and Kyle's obsession with Rex. He's a mediocre qb at best. Quit treating him like Joe Montana.

Actually Beck is the one with the strong arm so if anything we should see more downfield passes. People just seem to think that Grossman has a strong arm due to the "f**k it I'm going deep" meme. Myself included.

Serves us right though. We finally play the QB that can run the bootleg off play action and the left side of our line, that was key in running the ball so effectively, goes down. Still that mobility of Beck's is going to be a huge asset

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

Actually Beck is the one with the strong arm so if anything we should see more downfield passes. People just seem to think that Grossman has a strong arm due to the "f**k it I'm going deep" meme. Myself included.

Serves us right though. We finally play the QB that can run the bootleg off play action and the left side of our line, that was key in running the ball so effectively, goes down. Still that mobility of Beck's is going to be a huge asset

I can say that I noticed Rex's weaker arm even in preseason. But I have always been a stickler for trying to be empirical.

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

Actually Beck is the one with the strong arm so if anything we should see more downfield passes. People just seem to think that Grossman has a strong arm due to the "f**k it I'm going deep" meme. Myself included.

Serves us right though. We finally play the QB that can run the bootleg off play action and the left side of our line, that was key in running the ball so effectively, goes down. Still that mobility of Beck's is going to be a huge asset

Yep, I said this in another thread Dirtbag. It seemed like as games went on we shy away from the foundation of this offense the more Rex plays in it, but as soon as Beck hit the field we saw that bootleg, and some success coming from it.

Now that Beck is in.. We take a hit from our Oline, so for Beck to succeed now he's going to need to become even more keen.

[zeesson]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

We have seen enough of Grossman. THis is not just on bad game. Time to move on. Beck looked better suited to move the sticks. I hope the Shananhan's do not think about going back to Grossman. Enough!

I agree. A lot of the fans on this site simply don't know football. They casually watch the games, and see that we have a 3-1 record, and don't see anything else. To that type of person, going for it, on 4th and 30, in the redzone, with 3minutes left, when you're only up by 4; is only a bad idea if it doesn't work. You can't appeal to them with logical arguments like "Rex is inaccurate", or "Rex, throughout his entire career, has more turnovers than touchdowns, and he appears to be no different now". Their response will simply be "but we're 3 -1. Suppose Rex would have come out in the second half, and NOT thrown his fourth pick of the game, but instead he stops throwing it all together, and our running game kicks in, and our defense makes some great plays, and we squeak out with a win. Those same idiots would still be saying that we are 4-1, keep him in there.

This is the problem with repeating the talking point that we are x-x, and should therfore, not change from a horrible quarterback to a potentially better QB. The record doesn't mean anything. The Bears won 13 or 14 games with Rex under center. What matters is whether or not you are winning games BECAUSE of your Quarterback play, or whether you are winning games IN SPITE of your Quarterback play. The answer with Grossman was clear 2 weeks ago.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by zeesson

I agree. A lot of the fans on this site simply don't know football.

Then why did you join this site?

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by zeesson

I agree. A lot of the fans on this site simply don't know football. They casually watch the games, and see that we have a 3-1 record, and don't see anything else. To that type of person, going for it, on 4th and 30, in the redzone, with 3minutes left, when you're only up by 4; is only a bad idea if it doesn't work. You can't appeal to them with logical arguments like "Rex is inaccurate", or "Rex, throughout his entire career, has more turnovers than touchdowns, and he appears to be no different now". Their response will simply be "but we're 3 -1. Suppose Rex would have come out in the second half, and NOT thrown his fourth pick of the game, but instead he stops throwing it all together, and our running game kicks in, and our defense makes some great plays, and we squeak out with a win. Those same idiots would still be saying that we are 4-1, keep him in there.

This is the problem with repeating the talking point that we are x-x, and should therfore, not change from a horrible quarterback to a potentially better QB. The record doesn't mean anything. The Bears won 13 or 14 games with Rex under center. What matters is whether or not you are winning games BECAUSE of your Quarterback play, or whether you are winning games IN SPITE of your Quarterback play. The answer with Grossman was clear 2 weeks ago.

[zeesson]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Then why did you join this site?

I joined because of the rest of the people on the site. The one's that DO know football, and do have realistic expectations, and well structured arguments with premises, and conclusions, and supporting evidence, and such. Because in the actual guidelines that I was required to agree to when I signed up, I was told that logical and reasonable arguments would be expected of me. Here is the quote from the FORUM RULES:

"We pride ourselves in having a knowledgeable and informed member base at this site. We want to stress that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but if you want to be taken seriously you must back up your opinions with some original thought, facts/stats, etc. Think before you post, take pride in your post. If the moderators find that you aren't adding much value to the forums with your postings, your thread may be deleted or closed, and you may be subject to a permanent removal from the forums at our discretion"

My previous post was just a round-a-bout way of saying, DON'T feed the TROLLS!... or the idiots.

EXAMPLE: "We are 3-1" is not a well structured argument for why Rex Grossman should've remained the starter after last week. A better argument, and one I've seen here, would be:

"We are 3-1, and Rex Grossman is the primary reason, here is my statistical evidence"

Of course this argument would be uncogent, because no such evidence exists. Or more accurately, the evidence to the contrary is staggering.
I respect the site, and the rules, and also people that hold a view opposed to my own; but I don't respect fools, with no logical process of thier own, armed with talking points, and zero evidence to back it up. They have a right to spew thier nonsense, and I have a right, no, an obligation to point it out... when I have the time, and the energy.