Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look

[skinsfan0201]

agreed 100%! Thanks for speaking up with a quality opinion!!!!!!!!

[illdefined]

dont know why this has to be spread over 3 threads but, what did Brunell's performance last preseason prove? when did preseason ever prove much of anything for us?

it takes more than a half with a handful of plays in preseason games to develop a rhythm. Brunell had most of an entire season to establish his, Ramsey made lots of points last year and this year oh, about 15 minutes. and they were the first 15 minutes of the season. sorry but that doesn't determine shit.

[dblanch66]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Ok, I let myself dwell on this whole thing for a few hours before making a post. Here's my take.

First let me preface this by saying I like Ramsey and I was really hoping for him to be the man this season. I think he's a talented QB and still has a bright future in this league.

The only thing I ask is that you clear your mind for a moment and think about this objectively. I know as fans we get very emotional and we sometimes get attached to players, whether they're good players or not. But in the end, all that matters is winning football games, and that's what Coach Gibbs is trying to do here. He's not trying to play games, he's not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, he's trying to win games, period, end of discussion.

Ok, here's my view on the change. This idea that Ramsey didn't have a fair shot this year is false. He had the commitment of the staff since the 2004 season ended. He received the majority of the offseason work as the starter, and that carried over into training camp where he took 90% of the snaps in practice. He was given 4 preseason games to stake his claim as the starter. Despite some very shaky performances, Gibbs didn't waver, he stuck with Ramsey when he very easily could have slipped Brunell in there for a start or two.

Can anyone honestly say that based on what we saw from Ramsey this preseason, that he earned the starting job. Before you answer, just think about that a moment. Did he really earn the starting job? If you say yes, please explain what he did this preseason to earn the job. I'd love to hear it.

He threw 4 INTs against 2 TDs in the preseason with a QB rating of 65, and the INTs he threw were the kind of INTs that made you say "Huh? What was he thinking?"

Meanwhile, Brunell's play in the preseason was efficient and turnover free with a QB rating just over 85. Yes it was against backups, but there was a definite improvement in his game, that can't be denied. His trademark accuracy was back, his passes showed zip, he was mobile and moving around in the pocket, and in general he seemed to have a much better feel and control of this offense. Ramsey on the other hand never looked settled or in control.

Perhaps in the end, the biggest mistake Gibbs made was sticking by Ramsey too long this preseason. Or perhaps it goes back further than that, he probably should have opened up the QB competition heading into training camp and let the best man win.

The thing that's concerned me about Ramsey is he's actually looked worse so far this year than he did at the end of last year. Perhaps now we can see why Gibbs ran such a scaled back offense last year with him in there. Perhaps that's why all we saw Ramsey throw were short dink and dunks, maybe that's all he could handle. Fast forward to this year, Gibbs opened up the playbook and look what's happened. Ramsey has the happy feet again, he's holding on to the ball too long, he's indecisive, he's throwing INTs and coughing the ball up when hit. Those are signs of a QB who's not comfortable and doesn't have a firm grip on the offense.

Again, try to take the emotion out of this. Ramsey is still a work in progress, let's face it. Will he improve with time, yeah maybe he will. But after what happened last year, I don't think Gibbs is willing to make the same mistake of sticking with a struggling QB too long.

This team has the elements to be a playoff team this year. Portis looks poised for a big year, and Betts adds a great 1-2 punch to the running attack. The offensive line is much improved over a year ago. We have speed and playmaking ability at the WR position. And needless to say the defense is lights out as expected. The missing element? Stability and efficiency at the QB position, something that Ramsey can't give us right now. You might say, but what did Ramsey do yesterday to lose the job? He shouldn't lose the job due to injury. I answer with, so we should just ignore the 2 fumbles and 1 INT in 3 series worth of work? That sure didn't help his case, that's for sure.

I'll say it again, I like Ramsey, I really do. I think he's got a good future in this league, but right now Brunell appears to be the better option at QB. Put last year out of your mind with Brunell and just focus on what we've seen from him in 2005. He's played well and gives us the best chance to win right now.

I give Gibbs credit for having the guts to make a very difficult decision, but in the end could prove to be a very smart one.

Very well said, Matty. Agree on all points.

[illdefined]

yup, you nailed it e16. Brunell is like a prevent defense, "lets not lose". all that safe approach proved last season was assure we lost close games, but the last thing we need is more of last season..

[SmootSmack]

Anyone agree with me that I wish it was next Monday night already?

I can't keep up with all these posts. You all are going to keep me from getting any work during the day or any sleep at night.

[LRT]

Being overseas I don't get to see as many games as I'd like, but I did see some of the preseason and I saw the Bears game.

Ramsey looked better in the Bears game than he did last year; he did not make as many bad decisions and looked a little more confident than last year. He had much better pass protection and the difference showed. That said, there are still two things that hamper Ramsey and, I think, indicate that he will likely spend his career as a journeyman quarterback. First, even when he is standing in the pocket he has jittery feet and doesn't seem to set well. Yet, when he tries to move, he can't seem to get in gear. Second, he sometimes simply throws the wrong pass to the wrong guy. I can see where coaching might help the second problem, but I think the first is his forever.

Ramsey is going into his fourth year, and while they've been turbulent years, he has worked with some decent quarterback coaches. Certainly the changes in system have hurt him, but if he were the quarterback I think we all wanted him to be, I don't think they would have held him back this much.

As for Brunell, he looks like a different quarterback this year. Apart from one ball that hit the turf, I did not see any of last year's classically bad throws. And as for dumps and dinks, last year's dumps and dinks were often 3 - 7 yard routes. In the Bear's game, his dumps and dinks seemed to be in the 11 - 13 range and he did hit several longer routes, including hitting several receivers in stride. This was clearly not last year's Mark Brunell.

Nor, of course, was it the Mark Brunell of his Jacksonville heyday. In the end, however, Brunell played well enough to win. He did not make any killing mistakes and he moved the ball well and got us into scoring position three times against a tough defense.

Brunell may not be the best quarterback out there, but like Mark Rypien, I don't think he will kill us and he will be good enough to complement our running game and defense. Ramsey would be flashier, but, as much I've always liked the kid and as much as I wanted him to be our guy (he's having a Hall of Fame career for me on Madden), he will cost us games if he starts.

Just my two cents (or, I guess, more like a two bits)...

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by LRT

Being overseas I don't get to see as many games as I'd like, but I did see some of the preseason and I saw the Bears game.

Ramsey looked better in the Bears game than he did last year; he did not make as many bad decisions and looked a little more confident than last year. He had much better pass protection and the difference showed. That said, there are still two things that hamper Ramsey and, I think, indicate that he will likely spend his career as a journeyman quarterback. First, even when he is standing in the pocket he has jittery feet and doesn't seem to set well. Yet, when he tries to move, he can't seem to get in gear. Second, he sometimes simply throws the wrong pass to the wrong guy. I can see where coaching might help the second problem, but I think the first is his forever.

Ramsey is going into his fourth year, and while they've been turbulent years, he has worked with some decent quarterback coaches. Certainly the changes in system have hurt him, but if he were the quarterback I think we all wanted him to be, I don't think they would have held him back this much.

As for Brunell, he looks like a different quarterback this year. Apart from one ball that hit the turf, I did not see any of last year's classically bad throws. And as for dumps and dinks, last year's dumps and dinks were often 3 - 7 yard routes. In the Bear's game, his dumps and dinks seemed to be in the 11 - 13 range and he did hit several longer routes, including hitting several receivers in stride. This was clearly not last year's Mark Brunell.

Nor, of course, was it the Mark Brunell of his Jacksonville heyday. In the end, however, Brunell played well enough to win. He did not make any killing mistakes and he moved the ball well and got us into scoring position three times against a tough defense.

Brunell may not be the best quarterback out there, but like Mark Rypien, I don't think he will kill us and he will be good enough to complement our running game and defense. Ramsey would be flashier, but, as much I've always liked the kid and as much as I wanted him to be our guy (he's having a Hall of Fame career for me on Madden), he will cost us games if he starts.

Just my two cents (or, I guess, more like a two bits)...

Great post, LRT.

And as for all of this, I don't trust Gibbs, he lied to us, he's a bad man--if Ramsey had taken this opportunity by the balls, we wouldn't be here. He had all of camp as the #1 and never got comfortable, Gibbs never said, Pat is our starter, no matter how he plays. Gibbs sees him in practice, reviews the film, calls the plays, and has experience judging and molding QBs. And he's not the only one to see that Pat hasn't exactly lit things up around here. So this isn't completely out of the blue.

Did ya'll really feel so comfortable with Ramsey? I like the guy, but I know I didn't. I'm not comfortable with Brunnell either, to tell the truth. The main problem here is that neither inspires confidence. But in this preseason, things felt more stable with Brunnell, IMO. That's what created the initial talk of a QB controversy--it wasn't created by Gibbs. Pat did not step up. He may yet one day. But he's going to sit first. Hopefully, it's a Mark Rypien situation--he sits, and gets back in and rocks. We'll see.

[Joe Knows...]

Matty has my opinoin on it, and so does LRT...

Originally Posted by LRT

Being overseas I don't get to see as many games as I'd like, but I did see some of the preseason and I saw the Bears game.

Ramsey looked better in the Bears game than he did last year; he did not make as many bad decisions and looked a little more confident than last year. He had much better pass protection and the difference showed. That said, there are still two things that hamper Ramsey and, I think, indicate that he will likely spend his career as a journeyman quarterback. First, even when he is standing in the pocket he has jittery feet and doesn't seem to set well. Yet, when he tries to move, he can't seem to get in gear. Second, he sometimes simply throws the wrong pass to the wrong guy. I can see where coaching might help the second problem, but I think the first is his forever.

Ramsey is going into his fourth year, and while they've been turbulent years, he has worked with some decent quarterback coaches. Certainly the changes in system have hurt him, but if he were the quarterback I think we all wanted him to be, I don't think they would have held him back this much.

As for Brunell, he looks like a different quarterback this year. Apart from one ball that hit the turf, I did not see any of last year's classically bad throws. And as for dumps and dinks, last year's dumps and dinks were often 3 - 7 yard routes. In the Bear's game, his dumps and dinks seemed to be in the 11 - 13 range and he did hit several longer routes, including hitting several receivers in stride. This was clearly not last year's Mark Brunell.

Nor, of course, was it the Mark Brunell of his Jacksonville heyday. In the end, however, Brunell played well enough to win. He did not make any killing mistakes and he moved the ball well and got us into scoring position three times against a tough defense.

Brunell may not be the best quarterback out there, but like Mark Rypien, I don't think he will kill us and he will be good enough to complement our running game and defense. Ramsey would be flashier, but, as much I've always liked the kid and as much as I wanted him to be our guy (he's having a Hall of Fame career for me on Madden), he will cost us games if he starts.

Just my two cents (or, I guess, more like a two bits)...

This is quoted for being the best and most level headed post I've read all night.

Ramsey's problem is the mistakes he does make can cost us the ball game. You don't win games by creating turn overs. Turn Overs give the game away. And unfortunately for my main man, Ramsey, he makes way too many of them.

As for those who are asking why has Ramsey lost his confidence and looks as uncomfortable as he does, that's about to be covered in a post I made in another thread that I will re-post here....

[Joe Knows...]

This is what I wrote in the Gibbs Decision post and it applies here just as well...

Do you see my user name? That stands for Joe Knows Best. He is the coach of this team and he is a Hall Of Fame Coach at that. A H.O.F. Coach that has won us 3 Super Bowls. The man knows better than any one else who he needs to run his offense.

Look, I am a HUGE Ramsey fan. I actually got to hang out with him in the Dickinson College courtyard his first day of training camp his rookie year (the day Jon Janson tied him to the goal post and hazed him with ice.) He is a very nice guy, and an excellent person of character. But the fact of the matter is, ever since Steve Spurrier let him get killed and anialated and hung him out to dry that year, he has not been the same Quarterback. He has been figity and indecisive and worst of all, he has made very poor decisions with the football. And when you shoot your self in the foot you can't win football games.

I had that happen to me when I played QB in High School. I got creemated, and I know what it does to you. It ruins you. Your never the same afterward. Your instincts change. And you become figity and indecisive, and you get a false sense of urgency even when there is no pressure. Wich results in bad decisions with the football.

That is what happened with Patrick. Lately he has bee wreckless with the football and allowed too many unescessary turn over opurtunities. He doesn't need to force things with a defense like ours.

As long as we have the defense we have, we don't need to make too many big plays. All we had to do was control the football. Just like the Ravens did when they rode their defense all the way to the super bowl.

Of coarse, with John Hall out now, that will be a lot more difficult unless we can find a competent and confident place kicker.

But with Mark Brunell this year, he seems a lot more healthy and more like his old self from his pro-bowl days in Jacksonville. With Brunell, you know he'll protect the football and make smarter decisions. He's a veteran and will do just what needs to be done to give our defense the best chance to keep us in the ball game. Plus, his mobility makes defenses not just que in and blitz all the time like they did against Patrick. Brunell can beat the blitz alot better than Patrick. He also gets the ball out quicker than Patrick.

I think Brunell has looked excellent this year and gives us the best chance to win, so as much as I love Patrick Ramsey, I am jumping on the Brunell band wagon. We are in the bussiness of winning football games and winning is all that matters. And Mark Brunell gives us the best chance of winning.

My final answer to the question is yes.

And as a side note, if Ramsey must be traded for him to be happy then I hope he gets what he wants so he can be happy in life. He deserves at least that much. I just don't see how he'll start for any other NFL teams except maybe for Cleveland or possibly even the Jets with Pennington seemingly finished after that shoulder surgery causing him to loose all his mechanics and arm strength.



See, the key thing here is that Ramsey has been ruined by Steve Spurrier. If any one owes Ramsey something, it is STEVE SPURRIER. Spurriers in-ability to protect him has pretty much cost Ramsey his career.

It's just like Sonny Juergunson said on channell 4 when alll that happened that year. "You are never the same. You're not quite ever as comfortable in the pocket again." And after playing the position and having the same thing happen to me, I agree. You get a false sense of urgency from being beaten to a pulp every play, that even when you have all day to throw, there's little voices in your head that tell you to get rid off the football even if it means throwing it into coverage or at the wrong player. It also causes you to be jittery and figity because your always expecting that hit to come very soon.

And that's basically exactly what Ramsey has been doing. You can see it in his foot work. He never quite sets right. I think that is what is contributing to all those high over throws from the bears game (and other preseason games.) Not to mention the ones that were caught forced the recievers like Moss to have to jump to get it. That's not a very good thing for your recievers. They'll start to get upset with you sooner or later if you keep throwing the ball too high because it leaves hangs them out to dry against blood thirsty defenders.


Another key point is, all the things I'm hearing about Brunell tonight is the same kind of stuff they said at the beginning with Doug Johnson and Mark Rypien. And look what they turned out to be. They are Superbowl MVPs.

Let's all just be optimistic and trust the man who see's these 2 play every day, knows more football than all of us combined, and has one us 3 Super Bowls. Let's all just give his decision another chance now that Brunell looks healthier and better this year, and knows the offence more than he did in his first year with gibbs.

I know we become attached to certain players, but sometimes it's for the better in the long run for the team. I was pissed off when Champ got traded, and when Iffy & McCants got cut (Still am about Darnarious), but I can see now that they made other moves to better themselves afterwards. So I'll continue to support the man and trust in his knowlege.

I hope my fellow fans will too this week. If Brunell does OK and we beat Dallas, then jump on the Brunell bandwagon and let's go all the way to Detroit!

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by Joe Knows...

Ramsey's problem is the mistakes he does make can cost us the ball game. You don't win games by creating turn overs. Turn Overs give the game away. And unfortunately for my main man, Ramsey, he makes way too many of them.

turnovers cost games? what kind of argument is that? last time i say it, but Brunell proved his superior decision making would only keep us from losing badly, but his limitations are real and they made sure we *lost*. Ramsey proved he could stretch out the defense more with his superior (younger) gifts and we therefore started winning more games.

last season *did happen* guys, and however many excuses you can come up with for Brunell (that's what they are, excuses, because unlike Ramsey he had 10 games to play), you can come up with just as many if not more for Ramsey who won more with the exact same team in real games (and only had 20 MINUTES to play this season).

it's fishy, it's favortism, it's instinctual, whatever you want to call it. but to just dismiss what happened last season is extremely short sighted, not to mention WRONG.

[Joe Knows...]

Originally Posted by illdefined

turnovers cost games? what kind of argument is that?

You have got to be kidding me. If you really need to ask that question than I question if you really have any idea about the game of football.

If you fumble the ball on your own 40-1 yard line, that instantly puts your oponent in field goal range. And it sure makes it a whole lot easier for them to get a few yards and score a touchdown. It also pins your defense back and puts them in a tough situation. Plus they dont' get to rest and recover their energy because their always on the field. And also when your offense doesn't have the ball that means that YOU can't score. There for, if you just give the other team the ball with a foolish interception or fumble, even in THEIR territory, then you can't get any points.

It's simple and basic math here people! You cough up the ball, you can't score because you don't HAVE the ball! And it wears your defense down so they become tired and softer wich means easier to beat.

Sure Ramsey might stretch the field a little more, but he hasn't proven he can complete those passes since the Spurrier administration. Usually he over throws the reciever and a lot of times they land right at the Defensive back. That's not going to help you. That's just giving up downs and scoring opurtunities.

As for Brunell, he has displayed a much more powerful arm this year than he had last year. I don't know what it was, but he seems like a different QB this year. So basically if what you really care about is the long ball, I think you'll see a much improvement from what you saw last year. Even Joe Theisman was commenting on it when he was doing the Pre-season games. And Theisman is the biggest Ramsey fan that's ever played under Joe Gibbs. But Theisman knows QBs, so I'm sure that what I saw out of Brunells arm this season was the real deal and not some illusion like some of you guys seem to think.

illdefined, I also think that you seem to me more concerned with flash and flare with airing the ball out than you are about winning football games.

[JWsleep]

Good post, Matty.

Question: why is Gibbs so shaky on PR? He's been this way from day one. He's seen something he does not like. He's hoped it would change. It has not happened yet. My guess is it's his decision-making. He misreads Defenses and it causes TOs, either by INT or sack/fumble. My guess is that he named PR the starter in hopes that he would improve by getting the majority of snaps in preseason and practice. Haven't seen real improvment yet, IMO. Yes, I know that Ramsey hits a decent number of passes, and his yardage has been good. But it always takes a long time for him to read where the open guy is. His strong arm saves him lots of times, but in crucial moments, a blitz comes, and whamo, TO.

Brunnell SUCKED ASS last year, no doubt about it. But if, and this is a MAJOR if, he is healthy, he will benefit from the improved O-line and open playbook more than Ramsey will, right now. And he can beat the blitz better, which is what counts now. I am absolutely NOT convinced that Brunnell is some magically changed man. But I can see Matty's point here.

We'll see how this awkward experiment turns out!

[illdefined]

it's more than probable Gibbs just holds a great deal of pride in choosing his own team leader. Ramsey was always the red-headed stepchild, and this 20 minute "start" just proves he doesn't really want to build with him. as if Campbell wasn't proof enough.

[Sociofan]

Originally Posted by illdefined

it's more than probable Gibbs just holds a great deal of pride in choosing his own team leader. Ramsey was always the red-headed stepchild, and this 20 minute "start" just proves he doesn't really want to build with him. as if Campbell wasn't proof enough.

Now THAT is just B.S. Gibbs inherited Joey T and made a fine QB out of him. Don't overanalyze this as a "personal" decision.

[Joe Knows...]

One more piont I forgot to make... Joe Theisman and other former Gibbs players are always talking on TV about how Gibbs hates turn overs. And that if a player can't protect the football then Coach Gibbs isn't going to tolerate it and will not be afraid to bench him.

Looks like Theisman was telling the truth.