Ramsey/Brunell: a closer look

[Joe Knows...]

Matty has my opinoin on it, and so does LRT...

Originally Posted by LRT

Being overseas I don't get to see as many games as I'd like, but I did see some of the preseason and I saw the Bears game.

Ramsey looked better in the Bears game than he did last year; he did not make as many bad decisions and looked a little more confident than last year. He had much better pass protection and the difference showed. That said, there are still two things that hamper Ramsey and, I think, indicate that he will likely spend his career as a journeyman quarterback. First, even when he is standing in the pocket he has jittery feet and doesn't seem to set well. Yet, when he tries to move, he can't seem to get in gear. Second, he sometimes simply throws the wrong pass to the wrong guy. I can see where coaching might help the second problem, but I think the first is his forever.

Ramsey is going into his fourth year, and while they've been turbulent years, he has worked with some decent quarterback coaches. Certainly the changes in system have hurt him, but if he were the quarterback I think we all wanted him to be, I don't think they would have held him back this much.

As for Brunell, he looks like a different quarterback this year. Apart from one ball that hit the turf, I did not see any of last year's classically bad throws. And as for dumps and dinks, last year's dumps and dinks were often 3 - 7 yard routes. In the Bear's game, his dumps and dinks seemed to be in the 11 - 13 range and he did hit several longer routes, including hitting several receivers in stride. This was clearly not last year's Mark Brunell.

Nor, of course, was it the Mark Brunell of his Jacksonville heyday. In the end, however, Brunell played well enough to win. He did not make any killing mistakes and he moved the ball well and got us into scoring position three times against a tough defense.

Brunell may not be the best quarterback out there, but like Mark Rypien, I don't think he will kill us and he will be good enough to complement our running game and defense. Ramsey would be flashier, but, as much I've always liked the kid and as much as I wanted him to be our guy (he's having a Hall of Fame career for me on Madden), he will cost us games if he starts.

Just my two cents (or, I guess, more like a two bits)...

This is quoted for being the best and most level headed post I've read all night.

Ramsey's problem is the mistakes he does make can cost us the ball game. You don't win games by creating turn overs. Turn Overs give the game away. And unfortunately for my main man, Ramsey, he makes way too many of them.

As for those who are asking why has Ramsey lost his confidence and looks as uncomfortable as he does, that's about to be covered in a post I made in another thread that I will re-post here....

[Joe Knows...]

This is what I wrote in the Gibbs Decision post and it applies here just as well...

Do you see my user name? That stands for Joe Knows Best. He is the coach of this team and he is a Hall Of Fame Coach at that. A H.O.F. Coach that has won us 3 Super Bowls. The man knows better than any one else who he needs to run his offense.

Look, I am a HUGE Ramsey fan. I actually got to hang out with him in the Dickinson College courtyard his first day of training camp his rookie year (the day Jon Janson tied him to the goal post and hazed him with ice.) He is a very nice guy, and an excellent person of character. But the fact of the matter is, ever since Steve Spurrier let him get killed and anialated and hung him out to dry that year, he has not been the same Quarterback. He has been figity and indecisive and worst of all, he has made very poor decisions with the football. And when you shoot your self in the foot you can't win football games.

I had that happen to me when I played QB in High School. I got creemated, and I know what it does to you. It ruins you. Your never the same afterward. Your instincts change. And you become figity and indecisive, and you get a false sense of urgency even when there is no pressure. Wich results in bad decisions with the football.

That is what happened with Patrick. Lately he has bee wreckless with the football and allowed too many unescessary turn over opurtunities. He doesn't need to force things with a defense like ours.

As long as we have the defense we have, we don't need to make too many big plays. All we had to do was control the football. Just like the Ravens did when they rode their defense all the way to the super bowl.

Of coarse, with John Hall out now, that will be a lot more difficult unless we can find a competent and confident place kicker.

But with Mark Brunell this year, he seems a lot more healthy and more like his old self from his pro-bowl days in Jacksonville. With Brunell, you know he'll protect the football and make smarter decisions. He's a veteran and will do just what needs to be done to give our defense the best chance to keep us in the ball game. Plus, his mobility makes defenses not just que in and blitz all the time like they did against Patrick. Brunell can beat the blitz alot better than Patrick. He also gets the ball out quicker than Patrick.

I think Brunell has looked excellent this year and gives us the best chance to win, so as much as I love Patrick Ramsey, I am jumping on the Brunell band wagon. We are in the bussiness of winning football games and winning is all that matters. And Mark Brunell gives us the best chance of winning.

My final answer to the question is yes.

And as a side note, if Ramsey must be traded for him to be happy then I hope he gets what he wants so he can be happy in life. He deserves at least that much. I just don't see how he'll start for any other NFL teams except maybe for Cleveland or possibly even the Jets with Pennington seemingly finished after that shoulder surgery causing him to loose all his mechanics and arm strength.



See, the key thing here is that Ramsey has been ruined by Steve Spurrier. If any one owes Ramsey something, it is STEVE SPURRIER. Spurriers in-ability to protect him has pretty much cost Ramsey his career.

It's just like Sonny Juergunson said on channell 4 when alll that happened that year. "You are never the same. You're not quite ever as comfortable in the pocket again." And after playing the position and having the same thing happen to me, I agree. You get a false sense of urgency from being beaten to a pulp every play, that even when you have all day to throw, there's little voices in your head that tell you to get rid off the football even if it means throwing it into coverage or at the wrong player. It also causes you to be jittery and figity because your always expecting that hit to come very soon.

And that's basically exactly what Ramsey has been doing. You can see it in his foot work. He never quite sets right. I think that is what is contributing to all those high over throws from the bears game (and other preseason games.) Not to mention the ones that were caught forced the recievers like Moss to have to jump to get it. That's not a very good thing for your recievers. They'll start to get upset with you sooner or later if you keep throwing the ball too high because it leaves hangs them out to dry against blood thirsty defenders.


Another key point is, all the things I'm hearing about Brunell tonight is the same kind of stuff they said at the beginning with Doug Johnson and Mark Rypien. And look what they turned out to be. They are Superbowl MVPs.

Let's all just be optimistic and trust the man who see's these 2 play every day, knows more football than all of us combined, and has one us 3 Super Bowls. Let's all just give his decision another chance now that Brunell looks healthier and better this year, and knows the offence more than he did in his first year with gibbs.

I know we become attached to certain players, but sometimes it's for the better in the long run for the team. I was pissed off when Champ got traded, and when Iffy & McCants got cut (Still am about Darnarious), but I can see now that they made other moves to better themselves afterwards. So I'll continue to support the man and trust in his knowlege.

I hope my fellow fans will too this week. If Brunell does OK and we beat Dallas, then jump on the Brunell bandwagon and let's go all the way to Detroit!

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by Joe Knows...

Ramsey's problem is the mistakes he does make can cost us the ball game. You don't win games by creating turn overs. Turn Overs give the game away. And unfortunately for my main man, Ramsey, he makes way too many of them.

turnovers cost games? what kind of argument is that? last time i say it, but Brunell proved his superior decision making would only keep us from losing badly, but his limitations are real and they made sure we *lost*. Ramsey proved he could stretch out the defense more with his superior (younger) gifts and we therefore started winning more games.

last season *did happen* guys, and however many excuses you can come up with for Brunell (that's what they are, excuses, because unlike Ramsey he had 10 games to play), you can come up with just as many if not more for Ramsey who won more with the exact same team in real games (and only had 20 MINUTES to play this season).

it's fishy, it's favortism, it's instinctual, whatever you want to call it. but to just dismiss what happened last season is extremely short sighted, not to mention WRONG.

[Joe Knows...]

Originally Posted by illdefined

turnovers cost games? what kind of argument is that?

You have got to be kidding me. If you really need to ask that question than I question if you really have any idea about the game of football.

If you fumble the ball on your own 40-1 yard line, that instantly puts your oponent in field goal range. And it sure makes it a whole lot easier for them to get a few yards and score a touchdown. It also pins your defense back and puts them in a tough situation. Plus they dont' get to rest and recover their energy because their always on the field. And also when your offense doesn't have the ball that means that YOU can't score. There for, if you just give the other team the ball with a foolish interception or fumble, even in THEIR territory, then you can't get any points.

It's simple and basic math here people! You cough up the ball, you can't score because you don't HAVE the ball! And it wears your defense down so they become tired and softer wich means easier to beat.

Sure Ramsey might stretch the field a little more, but he hasn't proven he can complete those passes since the Spurrier administration. Usually he over throws the reciever and a lot of times they land right at the Defensive back. That's not going to help you. That's just giving up downs and scoring opurtunities.

As for Brunell, he has displayed a much more powerful arm this year than he had last year. I don't know what it was, but he seems like a different QB this year. So basically if what you really care about is the long ball, I think you'll see a much improvement from what you saw last year. Even Joe Theisman was commenting on it when he was doing the Pre-season games. And Theisman is the biggest Ramsey fan that's ever played under Joe Gibbs. But Theisman knows QBs, so I'm sure that what I saw out of Brunells arm this season was the real deal and not some illusion like some of you guys seem to think.

illdefined, I also think that you seem to me more concerned with flash and flare with airing the ball out than you are about winning football games.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by Joe Knows...

illdefined, I also think that you seem to me more concerned with flash and flare with airing the ball out than you are about winning football games.

i'm looking at the opposite of flash, i'm looking at the numbers. i'm looking at how many games Brunell LOST and how many games Ramsey WON *last year* not in Jacksonville, and not in preseason. remember last year? and i think it's reasonable to suspect a QB's physical abilities don't magically get better entering your late thirties

if he was really that hurt, then i question Gibbs keeping him in losing all those games with a healthy backup right there

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Joe Knows...

You have got to be kidding me. If you really need to ask that question than I question if you really have any idea about the game of football.

If you fumble the ball on your own 40-1 yard line, that instantly puts your oponent in field goal range. And it sure makes it a whole lot easier for them to get a few yards and score a touchdown. It also pins your defense back and puts them in a tough situation. Plus they dont' get to rest and recover their energy because their always on the field. And also when your offense doesn't have the ball that means that YOU can't score. There for, if you just give the other team the ball with a foolish interception or fumble, even in THEIR territory, then you can't get any points.

It's simple and basic math here people! You cough up the ball, you can't score because you don't HAVE the ball! And it wears your defense down so they become tired and softer wich means easier to beat.

Sure Ramsey might stretch the field a little more, but he hasn't proven he can complete those passes since the Spurrier administration. Usually he over throws the reciever and a lot of times they land right at the Defensive back. That's not going to help you. That's just giving up downs and scoring opurtunities.

As for Brunell, he has displayed a much more powerful arm this year than he had last year. I don't know what it was, but he seems like a different QB this year. So basically if what you really care about is the long ball, I think you'll see a much improvement from what you saw last year. Even Joe Theisman was commenting on it when he was doing the Pre-season games. And Theisman is the biggest Ramsey fan that's ever played under Joe Gibbs. But Theisman knows QBs, so I'm sure that what I saw out of Brunells arm this season was the real deal and not some illusion like some of you guys seem to think.

illdefined, I also think that you seem to me more concerned with flash and flare with airing the ball out than you are about winning football games.

way to strawman, quoting out of context and replying to that misquote is pretty silly :P

he was saying maybe brunell doesn't turn it over, but he sure doesn't score either, and that's a bigger problem.

Please, read the entire post and i think brunell's arm is an illusion, we'll see how many sub 100 yard gamess he has... not really an issue if we're winning, but last year our oline wasn't good enough to make big enough holes in stacked 10 man fronts, and without throwing over 100 yards, thats what we'll be getting again.