Paintrain's all encompassing 'discuss all things offseason' thread (Version 2.0)

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by scowan

Well if you are now a farmer tanned white guy you now have "red skin" and I know you are not offended.

On a serious note, I guess there is no real incentive to change the name for Dan Snyder until he tries to get a new stadium and starts asking for public money to help him build it. Then the Redskin name haters will come out of the wood work I'm sure.

I am really trying hard to find a way to make this offensive for me so I can understand. I am not an American Indian, I am a 45 year old white guy from Kentucky. Even if they called the team the Washington Honkys or the Washington Rednecks, I'm still just not getting offended. Maybe I just have thicker skin, I don't know. Someone needs to give me, a white guy, a name that will really offend me so I can understand. I'm conservative so maybe if you called me a liberal Democrat I might get it.

Well to play devils advocate the white man from Kentucky hasnt exactly endured the hardships that the native american has. Which is why you are not necessarily offended imo.
That being said it boils down to are native americans offended by the name. According to studies - they are not.

[skinsfanthru&thru]

Redskins LB Keenan Robinson is (finally) healthy, working with starters | Comcast SportsNet Washington

It's really nice seeing a player like Robinson whose gone through multiple injuries make his presence felt especially at a pretty huge position of need for the team. Hopefully he keeps making strides and becomes another solid pick for the team even if it took more time than everyone had hoped it would take.

[scowan]

Originally Posted by punch it in

Well to play devils advocate the white man from Kentucky hasnt exactly endured the hardships that the native american has. Which is why you are not necessarily offended imo.
That being said it boils down to are native americans offended by the name. According to studies - they are not.

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

I don't want to turn this into a social/history discussion. But Native Americans are one of many groups that have been disadvantaged over several generations and that's something that doesn't turn around overnight.

Here's a non minority comparison. Look at the southern US states that were heavily affected by the Civil War. Some of the poorest states in the country are in the South, which was heavily affected by the loss of people and economic resources during the war. Some of them bounced back, but most have not, yet the Civil War ended almost 150 years ago. Sure there has been other things affecting these states, but 5 years of warfare, loss of life, and breakdown of economic structure has a long term effect.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

Can opened, lol. I'll just share one example of the inequities that exist today based on things that happened generations ago.

I had a conversation a couple years back with a older (mid 60's) white gentleman who was telling me about the wind farms that he has on some family property he owns in Kansas that was passed down from multiple generations dating back to the early 1800's. On this land the government pays him nearly $15k monthly not to grow crops but to allow them to use the land for 'experimental energy sources'. He's banked millions over the years and his family is set for generations to come purely based on this subsidy. Great for him, I'm not mad at him!

Here's the thing, my ancestors were legally not allowed to own property in Kansas during that time period so regardless of my hard work, work ethic, etc. I would never have that same opportunity because of the history of this country. He didn't do anything but win the sperm lottery but he and his offspring are set for life.

Don't take this as a 'poor me' tale, I've done well for myself through my efforts and it turns my stomach to see anyone, regardless of what they look like, playing the blame game with one hand and extending the other hand for something other than a hand UP. I only share this because I've heard the 'let it go, it was so long ago, it doesn't matter' BS too many times and some people don't have the perspective to look at how laws and policies that existed well before their time have an institutional and systemic impact on today's society.

Lesson over, now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

Hey, sounds like Keenan Robinson has had a few good weeks!

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement.

lol theres a lot to disagree with here.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

I have almost said this same thing before but figured it was best unsaid. The fact is, the reservations that have casinos on them are making hundreds of millions a year. Those Indians have only known Mercedes and million dollar homes since they have had those casinos.

If they were willing to give some of that money away, they could easily pull some of the others out of poverty. But when Ray Halbritter wont even spend a few bucks to get a starving Indian a big mac, he shouldnt be using other Indians as his ammunition. Not to mention, hes not even an Indian. He is something like 20% Indian, absolutely 0% Oneida Indian (Im 12-15% Cherokee but certainly do not feel I have the right to call myself an Indian, and he isnt much more than I am). But then again, if an Oneida Indian speaks out against him, they are kicked off the reservation.

Blog: Race-Baiting Oneida Nation Leader Has Problems of His Own

Ray Halbritter treats Indians a helluva lot worse than most, if not all, Washington Redskins fans.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

wow....

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

You are dangerously close to coming off as a jerk.

You are generalizing horribly and not understanding (or just totally ignoring) the concept of power dynamics.

Just because a small few want to point fingers and not pull their weight doesn't mean an entire community doesn't want to. And as far as I know, Native Americans have never stomped their feet and complained about their plight. They made the best of what was an entirely racist and ridiculous situation thanks to Indian Termination Policy back between the 40's-60's.

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

+1 Regardless of how this is taken, he is right. Aforementioned groups back the F up and quit being money grabbers. If it hasn't been a problem for the past 20 years, why now?

Ochocinco said it best, "Pfft, child please."

[NC_Skins]

@KeithBritton86

So Gordon gets another speeding ticket & passenger cited for marijuana possession according to @WKYCSports - unreal


Gordon issued speeding ticket

This guy is trying his best to be kicked out of the league. He's off to a good start.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

@KeithBritton86

So Gordon gets another speeding ticket & passenger cited for marijuana possession according to @WKYCSports - unreal


Gordon issued speeding ticket

This guy is trying his best to be kicked out of the league. He's off to a good start.

Psh, if people like Pacman Jones and Mike Vick can't get kicked out of the league, nobody will. Especially not over weed possession. Josh Gordon can toke till he chokes, but at worst he'd be indefinitely suspended.

[ethat001]

Originally Posted by scowan

I'm about to open a can of worms I know, but what native americans of TODAY have endured hardships. If they have and are its because of their own choosing. This is like the Black community continuing to blame their struggles on whites when we are 40+ years from the civil rights movement. By the way, I see a black man in the oval office. At what point do you "join" America and take advantage of the freedom to choose you own future and outcome based on your abilty and quit blaming others for your struggles. Its not a perfect world I'll give you that, but there is more opportunity to rise above your condition in this country verses any other I know, but it seems like many want to continue to put the blame on others for their "condition" instead of rising above it through hard work and effort. Ok enough soapbox for me.

Our Congress just wants to continue to find "victims" they can champion. If its not the Redskins it would be another "victim" group. Instead of bringing people together, they just want to make us all hate each other for votes. Its all very sad.

I appreciate your candor, but it does show that you don't have much insight into the complex legacy of racial issues in the US. The sad part is that most people not affected don't. I'm not white, black, or Native American - but I appreciate the history, and I've actually been to inner city neighborhoods and also to native american reservations. I won't change your mind in a message board, but I disagree on your views.

Few points:

1) Obama is as much white as he is black.

2) The financial profits for casinos on reservations are overstated (see article here. Only a few near major cities make substantial profits, and a good portion of Native Americans are still very poor and on welfare. You're essentially completely wrong.

3) Would everyone here be fine renaming the team "Rednecks", "Black Panthers" or "Jihadi's"? I think it's fair to say that a word or name can have powerful connotations to a subset of people. Redskins is such an old term, it has lost much of it's initial meaning, but let's be honest - the initial meaning was not something to be proud of..



Again, I'm actually fine keeping the name Redskins.. but I think the talk on this thread demonstrates the racial insensitivities that prove the other side's points..

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by ethat001

I appreciate your candor, but it does show that you don't have much insight into the complex legacy of racial issues in the US. The sad part is that most people not affected don't. I'm not white, black, or Native American - but I appreciate the history, and I've actually been to inner city neighborhoods and also to native american reservations. I won't change your mind in a message board, but I disagree on your views.

Few points:

1) Obama is as much white as he is black.

2) The financial profits for casinos on reservations are overstated (see article here. Only a few near major cities make substantial profits, and a good portion of Native Americans are still very poor and on welfare. You're essentially completely wrong.

3) Would everyone here be fine renaming the team "Rednecks", "Black Panthers" or "Jihadi's"? I think it's fair to say that a word or name can have powerful connotations to a subset of people. Redskins is such an old term, it has lost much of it's initial meaning, but let's be honest - the initial meaning was not something to be proud of..



Again, I'm actually fine keeping the name Redskins.. but I think the talk on this thread demonstrates the racial insensitivities that prove the other side's points..

I take it you have not had an opportunity to review Bruce's letter?

http://files.redskins.com/pdf/letter...ruce-allen.pdf

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by Hog1

I take it you have not had an opportunity to review Bruce's letter?

http://files.redskins.com/pdf/letter...ruce-allen.pdf

Some people have honest intentions but as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I feel others like Reid are using it to distract from other more immediate issues facing the country like in the case of Reid net neutrality, the Comcast-Time Warner merger, and the veterans affairs scandal.

Though as BA kind of pointed out with a lot of these Senators so many of them crying foul and willing to go to the mattresses to get the name changed yet for years many of them have been ignoring the more critical issues surrounding basic quality of life on reservations. Doesn't make our view right just that when someones house is on fire you don't focus on someone leaving the lights on.

Honestly if it were up to me I would have it where every Native American that has ever lived on a reservation and is at least 15 years of age be allowed to vote. If the vote comes 70% or more in favor of the team keeping their name then the team should be given a 25 year pass before another vote is held.

Not to sound crass but non-natives can be as offended as they want for Native Americans really the only thing that matters is how Native Americans as a whole feel about this issue. For me personally if more then 30% found the name offensive I would find that as reason enough to change the name. After all you can't just flat out ignore a minority view just because they don't have enough support though by the same token you can't be taken hostage by it either.

The saddest part through of this whole tragedy might be that if the Redskins can hold out past the midterm election that the issue could end up loosing significant momentum until 2016 which in the end would mean that a bunch of politicians were trying to collect votes for the midterm elections.