Redskins Trademark cancelled

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by irish

True dat about those "tough guys". No way would anyone call a Native American a Redskin to their face. The same way people dont go around tossing out the N-word to a African American's face, chink or Jap to an Asian or Spic to a Hispanic.

Interestingly enough, there was a thread regarding the word "jap" on this very board almost 10 years ago to the day. Bill Parcells said the following:

"Mike wants the defense to do well, and Sean, he's going to have a few ... no disrespect for the Orientals, but what we call Jap plays. OK. Surprise things."

Aside from the anachronistic use of "Orientals," the majority of the posters saw absolutely nothing wrong with the term Jap. I was totally offended by it, but I was getting lectured on how the word was used in wartime to describe the enemy, how Parcells was using an analogy for trickery (which in itself has racist undertones), etc.

Once my Marine buddies returned State-side, many of them used the word "haji" to describe citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq... although the actual term (hajji describes one who has made the trek to Mecca), they used the word to dehumanize an enemy during a time of combat. Same with Japs, same with skinnies, same with Krauts. I'm passing no judgment on a soldier's usage of words to fit their psyches in a time of war. My problem is with the acceptance of such words in any context outside of imminent death.

We're not solving the real issues facing Native Americans- poverty, alcoholism, lack of education.
I often see this used as a deterrent for name change. Because there is no immediate solution for socio-economic destitution (created by chapters of stolen lands, broken treaties and overall annihilation), this fight has no bearing? How about we start seeing this group as humans instead of one codified by trademarks and helmet mascots.

But Redskins are a (random) Native American high school's nickname.
Yeah, that's what a few hundred years of pop culture indoctrination can do to your self-perception.

The name should change only if Native Americans themselves are offended.
First off, where is this in the societal norm rule book? If someone drops the n bomb towards one of my black friends, I'm taking umbrage. As for the 2004 Annenberg poll, 90% of 750+ respondents were not offended. This poll has been used ad nauseam by name supporters. This was just released two weeks ago. This poll has a smaller sample size, but the numbers are very different. With more NAs being against the name, the pro-Redskin argument shifts to...

"Redskins" was created by Native Americans to distinguish themselves from the white settlers. The terms symbolizes courage and honor. Why would an owner use a derogatory name for his own team?
This is a pretty good example of why I'm all for dropping the Redskins name. I don't care where or how a word is rooted- Redskin, Jap, Colored. As language develops, words change meaning over time. It isn't a case of political correctness run amok- it's a cultural phenomenon that exists within etymology.

Political correctness is getting out of hand!
Settle down... according to SportsNation, it's only 1/3 out of hand. But what happens in one year when that becomes 2/3? I feel like pro-name supporters keep moving the goal posts whenever public sentiment shifts further and further away from them.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Interestingly enough, there was a thread regarding the word "jap" on this very board almost 10 years ago to the day. Bill Parcells said the following:

"Mike wants the defense to do well, and Sean, he's going to have a few ... no disrespect for the Orientals, but what we call Jap plays. OK. Surprise things."

Aside from the anachronistic use of "Orientals," the majority of the posters saw absolutely nothing wrong with the term Jap. I was totally offended by it, but I was getting lectured on how the word was used in wartime to describe the enemy, how Parcells was using an analogy for trickery (which in itself has racist undertones), etc.

Once my Marine buddies returned State-side, many of them used the word "haji" to describe citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq... although the actual term (hajji describes one who has made the trek to Mecca), they used the word to dehumanize an enemy during a time of combat. Same with Japs, same with skinnies, same with Krauts. I'm passing no judgment on a soldier's usage of words to fit their psyches in a time of war. My problem is with the acceptance of such words in any context outside of imminent death.

We're not solving the real issues facing Native Americans- poverty, alcoholism, lack of education.
I often see this used as a deterrent for name change. Because there is no immediate solution for socio-economic destitution (created by chapters of stolen lands, broken treaties and overall annihilation), this fight has no bearing? How about we start seeing this group as humans instead of one codified by trademarks and helmet mascots.

But Redskins are a (random) Native American high school's nickname.
Yeah, that's what a few hundred years of pop culture indoctrination can do to your self-perception.

The name should change only if Native Americans themselves are offended.
First off, where is this in the societal norm rule book? If someone drops the n bomb towards one of my black friends, I'm taking umbrage. As for the 2004 Annenberg poll, 90% of 750+ respondents were not offended. This poll has been used ad nauseam by name supporters. This was just released two weeks ago. This poll has a smaller sample size, but the numbers are very different. With more NAs being against the name, the pro-Redskin argument shifts to...

"Redskins" was created by Native Americans to distinguish themselves from the white settlers. The terms symbolizes courage and honor. Why would an owner use a derogatory name for his own team?
This is a pretty good example of why I'm all for dropping the Redskins name. I don't care where or how a word is rooted- Redskin, Jap, Colored. As language develops, words change meaning over time. It isn't a case of political correctness run amok- it's a cultural phenomenon that exists within etymology.

Political correctness is getting out of hand!
Settle down... according to SportsNation, it's only 1/3 out of hand. But what happens in one year when that becomes 2/3? I feel like pro-name supporters keep moving the goal posts whenever public sentiment shifts further and further away from them.

ivnetop, why would you ever become a fan of a team with such an offensive name? Are you saying within the last year redskins is officially an offensive term?

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

ivnetop, why would you ever become a fan of a team with such an offensive name? Are you saying within the last year redskins is officially an offensive term?

I grew up with the team since childhood... was at RFK to feel the stands rocking. Lived through the glory years with The Posse and The Hogs. Couldn't sleep after sneaking off to watch MNF, only to witness LT ending Joe Theismann's career. My heart dropped when Marcus Allen eviscerated the team in the Super Bowl. It sang when Doug Williams dropped 4 tugs in one quarter several years later. I mourned through Sean Taylor's death. I've stuck with the team through nearly two decades of mediocrity and below.

The emotional highs and lows, the camaraderie I felt back home and now at my local "R-bar" in LA, the screaming at a stationary box (from 13 inches of analog to 52" of high definition precision)- these are memories built every Sunday with friends and family. An inanimate mascot or name had little to do with it.

Yes, I used to sing HTTR when I was younger. But now I don't say the word out loud because I cringe before doing so. I'm not sure what happened, but I've been off the Redskin name bandwagon for a very long time (if you dig up old archives, my ancient posts reflect such). From soccer pubs to Red Sox and Yankee bars, fan bases around the world are built on local ties first and foremost. The team represents where you are, your neighbors and community. Of course there are always exceptions of fans outside the team's audience, but for the most part it comes from a sense of local pride.

I didn't stop being a fan of DC hoops when they became the Wizards and I won't stop being a fan when Redskins is removed, either. It's just a matter of time. And I hope the majority of the fanbase will quickly resume cheering the organization after the inevitable few weeks of hate and vitriol is spewed towards an ever-changing society.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Interestingly enough, there was a thread regarding the word "jap" on this very board almost 10 years ago to the day. Bill Parcells said the following:

"Mike wants the defense to do well, and Sean, he's going to have a few ... no disrespect for the Orientals, but what we call Jap plays. OK. Surprise things."

.

Why were you offended ?

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Why were you offended ?

How are you not?

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

How are you not?

Because I have more important things in life to be worried about than to wast time being offended by a word.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

Because I have more important things in life to be worried about than to wast time being offended by a word.

Yes- because being offended by a word takes too much of our brain space to process other information. It takes me a half a second to refrain from using a pejorative and another to speak up if I don't like it. Hardly enough to prevent me from my responsibilities.

I won't delve into how words shape communication, culture and influence- there's no point in discussing this if people think words have no power. (There's a reason why the Civil Rights movement came to pass- great leaders emboldened masses of people with words. Some German guy also used words to dehumanize an entire group. Ugh- Godwin strikes again).

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Yes- because being offended by a word takes too much of our brain space to process other information. It takes me a half a second to refrain from using a pejorative and another to speak up if I don't like it. Hardly enough to prevent me from my responsibilities.

I won't delve into how words shape communication, culture and influence- there's no point in discussing this if people think words have no power. (There's a reason why the Civil Rights movement came to pass- great leaders emboldened masses of people with words. Some German guy also used words to dehumanize an entire group. Ugh- Godwin strikes again).

But wait a minute. You still support and listen to artists who use the n-word. If you're this spirited about the name "Redskins" and compare it to the n-word, and you say your offended, you wouldn't support that artist and you wouldn't support a team who uses the name. If I'm offended about something, it makes me angry to even hear about it. I don't want to hear it, see it, touch it, taste it...I don't want it around me at all. If I "tolerate" it in my entertainment, I'm not offended. It's as simple as that.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

But wait a minute. You still support and listen to artists who use the n-word. If you're this spirited about the name "Redskins" and compare it to the n-word, and you say your offended, you wouldn't support that artist and you wouldn't support a team who uses the name. If I'm offended about something, it makes me angry to even hear about it. I don't want to hear it, see it, touch it, taste it...I don't want it around me at all. If I "tolerate" it in my entertainment, I'm not offended. It's as simple as that.

Please re-read my stance on boycotting. Another example- not a fan of Orson Scott Card's personal beliefs and public statements. Huge fan of Ender's Game. Wagner was one hell of a composer despite being an unapologetic anti-Semite. Mel Gibson's drunken rants? Don't tell me some of you aren't disgusted by his words, yet still watch his films. Separate the art from the artist. A song's message from its offensive content. A team from its nickname. It's the same way I can dance to "Ain't No Fun" in a club without stomping off the floor because of its misogynist (yes, offensive) lyrics.

Although I see the word Redskin as an offensive label, I tolerate it because I don't define the team I root for by its mascot or nickname. Being from the DMV area ties me to this team. I understand not everyone weighs the word equally right now. Just like how the n-bomb was part of everyday vernacular not so long ago, it took a few decades for the word to become universally rejected (despite some who say there are more important things to worry about than such words). But with sentiment quickly growing, right now will be tomorrow's misstep. Our future generations will wonder how exactly this name stuck around for so long.

I'll still be supporting this team after the name switches. For everyone holding on to the name for dear life- will you?