All things offseason discussion part II

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Someone is going to pay Orakpo a lot of money next year. He may not be elite but he is very good, and very good pass rushers get paid. A lot.

Let somebody else do it. Good teams don't overpay for "good" talent. They pay for elite talent and let everybody else walk.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Let somebody else do it. Good teams don't overpay for "good" talent. They pay for elite talent and let everybody else walk.

The Redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not 'elite'. That's how you end up with guys like Reed Doughty, Josh Wilson, and Rob Jackson as starters.

There's no point in letting well above average, home grown talent walk when you have nothing better(at this point in time) to replace it. Is saving some money really worth downgrading an already terrible defense?

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

The Redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not 'elite'. That's how you end up with guys like Reed Doughty, Josh Wilson, and Rob Jackson as starters.

There's no point in letting well above average, home grown talent walk when you have nothing better(at this point in time) to replace it. Is saving some money really worth downgrading an already terrible defense?

Hrm... i'm not sure how much I believe the idea that the redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not elite... over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.

I do recall it being because the player had a gripe with the fans, or the organization. Or because the player's wife had an issue with a certain mistress in the area. Or because the FO thought some top-dollar free agent that was past his prime would be a better person to pick up.

I also recall the FO having a history of completely avoiding the process of acquiring young, raw talent and developing it.

The elite teams let players that want too much money walk all the time. They also have a system in place that grooms young, raw talent players so that when a person needs to be let go because of their contract demands there is someone ready to step into place. They also have a solid roster all the way around that affords them the ability to look at any one single player and say "We can win without you." (minus QB and in a few rare cases another skill position.)

The redskins have not had that since Gibbs 1. If letting Orakpo walk is such a bad idea it's only a bad idea because Redskins have yet again failed to bring in a young player and groom them for eventually taking over the position, forcing them into having to decide between way over paying a player or running with a significantly lower-potential person. Par for the course. I'm hopping Allen's #1 priority is to change that about the team, but it's his first year in total control so it's far to early to expect that right now.

And you guys can cite the rush stats as Orakpo being held back - but he's had opportunities to make plays and more often than not he fails, for whatever reason. I'm absolutely willing to concede that he's been used wrong - we've been a square peg/round hole organization for a while now (another thing I hope Allen fixes.) But you just flat out don't see players blossom this late in their career very often, so I remain skeptical that he's going to put on the performance worth the money he is demanding.

This isn't an issue of the team not keeping 'home grown' talent. It's an issue of over paying for a guy or not, and the fact that we don't have a process in place that leaves us very many options via younger players that have been groomed.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by tshile

Hrm... i'm not sure how much I believe the idea that the redskins have a habit of letting good talent walk because they're not elite... over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.

LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.

Landry was hurt all the time and Rogers if I remembered correctly wanted out at all costs. Pierce was a huge mistake imo.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, and Antonio Pierce. As far as I can remember, the team did not feel they were worth what they were asking for. I'm not claiming any of them are all stars, but each of them was replaced with players worse than them.

The situation with each of those guys feels eerily similar to the current situation with Orakpo. Lukewarm fan response and local media outlets downplaying his contributions. It's pretty obvious when this team is preparing the fanbase for someone to be gone.

Landry wouldn't have a surgery the team wanted him to have. His health was an issue. It wasn't an issue of skill or anything like that. And when you look at how his career has gone since leaving...

Rogers wanted out.

I was a bit too young to really remember Pierce and the circumstances surrounding him leaving. If he fits the mold I'll trust you on it.

You've got 1 guy.

That's far from a trend of not paying guys...

You brought up Clark... they let him go not because they didn't want to pay him, but because they wanted to blow their wad on Adam Archuleta...

So, aside from your one guy... we're back to what I originally said...

...
over the last 10 years talent has walked for a variety of reasons, I don't recall any of them being because the team didn't think they were good enough.

I do recall it being because the player had a gripe with the fans, or the organization. Or because the player's wife had an issue with a certain mistress in the area. Or because the FO thought some top-dollar free agent that was past his prime would be a better person to pick up.

If you have more guys, please share. I've heard this argument before. I've yet to hear anyone actually put together a list of people over the last 15 years that actually match up to Orakpo's situation... where the FO and the player genuinely like each other, there are no off the field issues, the player just wants too much money and the FO is (so far) refusing to give it (though reluctant is probably the better way to word it, we did franchise him...)

The biggest criticism of Snyder over the last 15 years is that he *pays the wrong players too much money* often to the detriment of actually building a solid team.

In fact... the only good thing anyone could ever say about Snyder was that he was willing to throw his money around in an attempt to bring in talent. The talent evaluation was suspect at best, the contract decisions were harmful in the long run. But at least he'd throw his money around.

Originally Posted by Southpaw

If the new business model is not paying anyone, good luck attracting or holding on to talent.

That's not what anyone has said.

In fact, majority of fans from what I can tell want to keep Orakpo... they just want to pay a few less dollars to do so. Ie: pay him more appropriate to his level of expected contribution.

Ie: move away from the business model of the last 14 years that has completely sunk this organization.