The Obama Years- A GOP love story

[tshile]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Again, you aren't getting specifics on the internet forums, but you are also quick to dismiss the specifics that I did mention. Being at a fundraiser reflects a lack of concern, could he have resolved the issue by skipping the fundraiser, maybe - maybe not, but he could have demonstrated to the parties involved that it was a serious incident to shoot down a civilian jet. He could have used that time to meet with national security and congressional national security representatives. Perhaps they sit on their thumbs and twiddle their fingers, but Russian and separatists would have to at least believe they were going over possible responses at the US could take, including, coordinating having FAA, Malaysian, and international crews on the ground in Ukraine controlled territory and waiting impatiently for the separatists to allow them onsite. We could have announced that we will seek permission from Kiev to allow AWAC overflight of West Ukraine. Going to a fundraiser, and not speaking publicly (not press releases that G1 referred to), sends a message to world community.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the President could have held a national telecast, instead of a fundraiser, and brought the shooting of a civilian aircraft, operating along a known civilian route, under the shining light of US auspices, or discussed how that act brings a new and dangerous dimension to the fight in Ukraine. He could have highlighted the peaceful election and the high percentage support for the new Kiev government and directly call on the separatists to lay down their arms and meet with Kiev. He could have been working with Merkel, and the other European national leaders, to craft a proposal that would entice the separatists to the table, or crafting a UN resolution to create a UN sponsored peace talks under UN auspices.

All of this is to say that there are specific and substantive acts that a US President can, and should, take when a hostile force attacks a civilian aircraft with reckless abandon, and these acts should be immediate, obvious, and carry the full weight and stature of the office of the President and the power and force of the US world status. Instead, this President chose to release a meaningless release saying we don't even know if any US citizens were on board (so the other 270 or so human beings aren't important?, or the free and safe passage of civilian airlines aren't important), and attend a fundraiser that does nothing to unite the nation, or bring this to the nation as a whole under the seal of the President of the United States of America.

It's easy to do nothing (hell I try and get away with it every day LOL) and it's safer to sit back and offer platitudes to international leaders. It's incumbent on the US President though to be a national LEADER of actions, and not a middle management zombie going through motions of a political hack.

and G1- this is how CBS reported the President's statement:


Again, that's a Hallmark condolences card with a statement of American ignorance (why say we don't know if there were US citizens on the aircraft, it's a useless sentence and a silly first priority, whether or not US citizens were killed should be secondary to assuring safe passage of civilian aircraft at heights of 33,000 feet). That's NOT a US President acting as a leader on a world stage. If that and the condolences to Poreshenko and the Malaysian leader is all the US President needs to do, then we should just vote in the owner of Hallmark in the next election.

That's fair.

It just irks me when you see criticism with no real alternative suggested, especially in a situation like this. You want UN Peace Keepers on the ground? well... they're having a meeting about that today, I honestly don't know what you or anyone else could have done differently in that regard. You want sanctions? We're already doing that...

If the criticism is that he went to a fundraiser, then so be it. We have plenty of examples of other presidents doing similar things. It irked me just as much when people criticized Bush for continuing to read to the children after finding out about 9-11... it seems like shallow criticism from people without a clue as to what is actually going on in totality in that situation. As if the entire arm of military, foreign policy, and intelligence of the United States is temporarily disabled and on standby because the President went to a fundraiser; or chose to continue to read to the children.

If your additional criticism is that he gave a lackluster speech on the issue, or that he missed an important opportunity to be a leader, then I get that. It's ironic... the president that's known for being a great speech maker and not much else, can't seem to make a meaningful speech when it matters

I have no idea what the right response to this situation is... I'd like to see the people responsible put on trial for high crimes and put to death if found guilty, but I don't know how we can do that if Russia decides to protect them (Maybe some of them are in Russia's military/political offices???)

In fact... if the interest is in punishing those responsible (assuming they were terrorists, or someone that made a mistake in the war going on in the area [on either side]) then we need Russia to cooperate and grandstanding and using this as a chance to take shots at them isn't going to help at all...

But it seems like every time something like this happens we hear a lot of crowing from whatever group is opposed to the sitting president when things like this happens, when the truth is majority of the people crowing don't have a clue of what is actually going on, much less what should be going on.

The idea of finding out all the facts before demanding action seems to be a lost virtue these days... it's always hurry up and do something, then criticize whatever that something is.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

That's fair.

It just irks me when you see criticism with no real alternative suggested, especially in a situation like this. You want UN Peace Keepers on the ground? well... they're having a meeting about that today, I honestly don't know what you or anyone else could have done differently in that regard. You want sanctions? We're already doing that...

If the criticism is that he went to a fundraiser, then so be it. We have plenty of examples of other presidents doing similar things. It irked me just as much when people criticized Bush for continuing to read to the children after finding out about 9-11... it seems like shallow criticism from people without a clue as to what is actually going on in totality in that situation. As if the entire arm of military, foreign policy, and intelligence of the United States is temporarily disabled and on standby because the President went to a fundraiser; or chose to continue to read to the children.

If your additional criticism is that he gave a lackluster speech on the issue, or that he missed an important opportunity to be a leader, then I get that. It's ironic... the president that's known for being a great speech maker and not much else, can't seem to make a meaningful speech when it matters

I have no idea what the right response to this situation is... I'd like to see the people responsible put on trial for high crimes and put to death if found guilty, but I don't know how we can do that if Russia decides to protect them (Maybe some of them are in Russia's military/political offices???)

In fact... if the interest is in punishing those responsible (assuming they were terrorists, or someone that made a mistake in the war going on in the area [on either side]) then we need Russia to cooperate and grandstanding and using this as a chance to take shots at them isn't going to help at all...

But it seems like every time something like this happens we hear a lot of crowing from whatever group is opposed to the sitting president when things like this happens, when the truth is majority of the people crowing don't have a clue of what is actually going on, much less what should be going on.

The idea of finding out all the facts before demanding action seems to be a lost virtue these days... it's always hurry up and do something, then criticize whatever that something is.

Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by tshile

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

[tshile]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.