The Obama Years- A GOP love story

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

All of this is to simply buttress what CRed was saying - this is not a unipolar world anymore. The problem is, the US leadership and its populace have failed to figure that out and, instead, have assumed (under Obama) the western European/US mindset that liberal democracy (little l, little d) is something to which all countries aspire.

I am with CRed on this. In a world where Putin and China are power players, the potential for a huge f*** up leading to global inferno is a much larger threat then the current administration seems to understand.

Ok ,then what is it the you think should be done ?

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Ok ,then what is it the you think should be done ?

As CRed has stated, first and foremost, acknowledge that the majority of the world does not believe western liberal democracy (again, little l, little d) is the be all and end all of governmental forms. In the trade off between individual freedom and security, the majority of nation-states choose security. Only western European countries and those govts. established or nurtured by them (Japan for example) have bought into the US/European ideal.

Once this is acknowledged, stop playing nice and stop playing policeman. Clearly state our policy interests and, essentially, play the game of real-politik that China and Russia are now doing. In addition to our overwhelming military might, we have considerable economic strength through diverse and global economic alliances and, with it, we can, and should, act to protect our economic interests and partners. Our military should be engaged only to the extent it clearly benefits these economic and national security interests.

Primary among those interests should be the limitation of Putin's attempts to undermine the Ukraine and through the Russian sponsored attacks on that country, undermine our relationship with Germany, the fundamentally strongest and best European partner we have (Where does the majority of Germany's gas come from - hint, from a pipeline running through a country that begins with U and ending in a country that begins with an R). Provide air support wtihin the Ukraine with a promise that any fire upon US planes from outside Ukrainian borders will be returned with overwhelming force (so, Mr. Putin, better make sure none of your tanks are near rebel forces firing at US planes from within your borders).

As to China, publicly reaffirm our alliances with Japan and Taiwan. Park a carrier group or two in their territorial waters and let the Chinese bitch. Then, impose a prohibitive tariff on all Chinese imports until and unless they unpeg the yuan.

In essence, make it clear we are no longer the world's policeman but will, instead, use both our military and economic might to protect clearly defined policy goals. Regardless of what the actual policies may be, clarity and consistency are incredibly important. If you disagree with my proposed policies on China and Russia, fine. I am not wedded to either. Whatever our policy is, however, our line in the sand and the penalty for crossing it must be clear. Lacking the recognition that a line must be drawn and that it must be clear invites the destructive misunderstandings that triggered WWI one hundred years ago.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

In essence, make it clear we are no longer the world's policeman but will, instead, use both our military and economic might to protect clearly defined policy goals. Regardless of what the actual policies may be, clarity and consistency are incredibly important. If you disagree with my proposed policies on China and Russia, fine. I am not wedded to either. Whatever our policy is, however, our line in the sand and the penalty for crossing it must be clear. Lacking the recognition that a line must be drawn and that it must be clear invites the destructive misunderstandings that triggered WWI one hundred years ago.

So we aren't the Worlds Police (i agree) but then we draw a line in the sand and say cross it and we will fight you , the only way that works is to back it up, sorry nope . The people in this country are tired of fighting wars ,they are tired of sending their Fathers/Mothers and Sons/Daughters off to die in another country to protect a policy .Obama knows this so his options are limited .

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Giantone

So we aren't the Worlds Police (i agree) but then we draw a line in the sand and say cross it and we will fight you , the only way that works is to back it up, sorry nope . The people in this country are tired of fighting wars ,they are tired of sending their Fathers/Mothers and Sons/Daughters off to die in another country to protect a policy .Obama knows this so his options are limited .

You want isolationism? Fine. Announce it. Cede our economic interests to China & Russia and the ME to extremists. I am fine with that (basically). Just make clear where the GD line is. What are our national interests? Where do we draw the line?

For Europe, Obama has just announced it is not in Ukraine. Is the Danube? The Oder? The Elbe? The Rhine? Brooklyn? With this administration, I just don't f'ing know and, more importantly, I don't think they know either.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

So we aren't the Worlds Police (i agree) but then we draw a line in the sand and say cross it and we will fight you , the only way that works is to back it up, sorry nope . The people in this country are tired of fighting wars ,they are tired of sending their Fathers/Mothers and Sons/Daughters off to die in another country to protect a policy .Obama knows this so his options are limited .

Good leaders can draw appropriate lines, AND explain to tired fathers/mothers/sons/daughters WHY the line is drawn, and why we need to be prepared for all eventualities. You can do this with phrases like, but not limited to:
- the United States upholds the long standing belief that civil society depends on free trade, and respect for a country's soveriegn borders. What is happening today in Ukraine is unacceptable for a neighboring country to take another country's land and resources through military force. We as a nation cannot let that aggression go undeterred, because through the course of history, we have learned that agressors rarely stop with one bite. And Russia is already on it's 2nd, having seized portions of Georgia in 2008. To this end, we will, with Ukrainian support place a F-18 squadron temporarily in Kiev. And we will begin regular patrols over Ukraine sovereign air space. We do not want war, but if our forces are attacked on patrol we will respond. We call on Russia to stand down from their aggressive advances in Ukraine. And we call on nations around the world to work with us in order to deter them from any further incursions.
-- end statement
Now before you cry that this will start a war -
a) a war is already started
b) we are clearly stating a long held US and international principal of sovereignty
c) we are not saying that we will attack, only that we will respond. if Russia doesn't want a war, then they will step back.

obviously, you have to have Ukrainian buy in. And you have to present it to the US public as a valid policy requirement. If the US is not willing to then the President should make the following (or equivalent):

Russia has determined that it is going to seize portions of a sovereign nation. When Iraq did this to a US Ally with recognized treaties of protection, we responded by driving Iraq's forces out within months. We hold our treaties and friends in high regards and will support them always. To the Ukrainian citizens who Russia has deemed to invade, we express sympathy. To the world at large, we ask that the UN General Assembly immediately vote to strip Russia of any and all guarantees as they have broached the UN charter. And we proclaim to our treaty allies of Estonia, Poland, Latvia, that we stand with you as we stood with Kuwait. You will not fall under a Russian territorial grab. To US citizens, we are members of NATO because it gives us a common protective force that keeps aggressors away from us, our friends, and our allies. We must always remember that our way of life and prosperity comes in many ways from the protective alliances which have allowed markets to grow and economies to be resilient. We do not want to see troubled waters, but we cannot allow our long time friends and allies to return to the days of shadows and doubt. We say to Ukraine that we see your struggle, and for now, offer the hope that one day Ukrainians will join side by side in the EU, and NATO.


Sure, I am not a politician, so there are multiple layers in both those things that diplomats and their ilk would iron out. But the point is that you be decisive and you lay out the national political values of why, if it is, this fight needs to be fought, or you let the world know that this is not our fight, but if you want to make it our fight, we will do our best to kick your a$$

Instead, what we get is a mad parent setting curfews, withholding allowances, waggling his finger at what he sees as a rebellious child. Putin is not a rebellious child, he is an attack dog, and he will attack (when the moment is best in his judgement) until he has a reason not too.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Good leaders can draw appropriate lines, AND explain to tired fathers/mothers/sons/daughters WHY the line is drawn, and why we need to be prepared for all eventualities..

I respect what you say ,you and JR but I don't agree with it .This line tells all I need to know . I know you can't seem to understand it but will you be ok sending you son,daughter /wife to Russia to die for a policy ,they might have a different idea .This whole conversation is bringing back the 60's/70's and Vietnam .

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

I respect what you say ,you and JR but I don't agree with it .This line tells all I need to know . I know you can't seem to understand it but will you be ok sending you son,daughter /wife to Russia to die for a policy ,they might have a different idea .This whole conversation is bringing back the 60's/70's and Vietnam .

My son is 17 years old, my next oldest is 15years old. I don't think Fathers/Mothers in WWI or II or Korea, or Vietnam or Iraq/Afg. were "OK" for sending it, but there is a thing called national security, and world politics, and if Putin is willing to take food off his own people's shelves, I guarantee he won't give a rat's ass about any US child. Do I want my son to go to war. No, no sane US citizen does. Do I accept that the world is not friggin ponies and fairy tales and group hugs. Yes. It shouldn't bring back the 60 and 70's because that's not the world structure that is in place. It should bring back the time before both World Wars, and if we don't want to see that type of fire engulf the whole world, our leaders better sure as hell have the backbone and reality check to make a case for protecting US interests abroad and at home. And it ain't by taking one of our biggest strengths off the d*** table before we even started the process.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

My son is 17 years old, my next oldest is 15years old. I don't think Fathers/Mothers in WWI or II or Korea, or Vietnam or Iraq/Afg. were "OK" for sending it, but there is a thing called national security.

Russia and Ukraine is not a national security risk for US .When there is one of course I believe in defending our country .WW I an II there was , we were openly attacked in II ,not in Korea or Vietnam .Buy the end of Vietnam there were as many parents wanting out as there were young kids ,this is what I meant by age in my other post and no it was not a shot at anyone .At 17 my number in the draft was pulled(I still have my draft card) ,they had stop the draft put were still pulling the numbers in case needed.7 kids in my family and I was the only one that could be drafted ,it was fun at night to hear the fighting on what I should do from everyone else and all I kept asking is why are we there and no one could answer me , tell me policy and I would have punch you in the mouth then ,I had already lost a cousin in Vietnam in 1970 .Sorry for the digression ,look I understand the viewpoint, I just disagree with it .

[NC_Skins]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczyn...he-mini#mo87eh



Yeah you fucking lazy black people. What the fuck is wrong with you for wanting a living wage? I remember back when slaves were given food/shelter and we didn't have a issue back then. /s




Why am I not surprised this is coming from Ted Cruz's dad? Imagine if this douche bag runs what the media will do. Just put this on repeat and call it a day.