All things Middle East related

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

NCSkins, you're displaying your ignorance again. If a direct link is what you need, here you go:

Monday 30 June 2014 - Bodies of three missing Israeli teenagers found in West Bank

Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach were kidnapped while hitchhiking back from their religious schools

And the land isn't stolen, it's been in dispute. Guess which side would rather launch rockets than make a permanent peace deal?

Like I said, you are way behind recent events, NCSkins. Quit while you are behind.

You are grasping at straws. Big time.

So how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank. You STILL haven't answered that question yet.

In fact, you've side stepped and posted about the 3 teenagers murdered. Also, the teenagers killed is another fiasco that the Israeli government knew they were dead, yet acted as if they were still "missing" and used that to roam through the Palestinian villages breaking into people's homes and arresting people. (that had nothing to do with it)

Back to the story. How many rockets have been fired from the West Bank by the Palestinian Fatah?

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You are grasping at straws. Big time.

So how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank. You STILL haven't answered that question yet.

In fact, you've side stepped and posted about the 3 teenagers murdered. Also, the teenagers killed is another fiasco that the Israeli government knew they were dead, yet acted as if they were still "missing" and used that to roam through the Palestinian villages breaking into people's homes and arresting people. (that had nothing to do with it)

Back to the story. How many rockets have been fired from the West Bank by the Palestinian Fatah?

Grasping at what straws? You have blatantly engaged in a strawman argument here. Why are you asking me how many rockets have been fired from the West Bank? Have I ever said rockets were fired from the West Bank? Are YOU confused which is the West Bank and which is Gaza Strip?

You did ask me if any rocket or other attacks had been launched from West Bank. I told you about one: 3 murdered teens found dead just recently. And yes, it was a terrorist act. LINK

And oh, look. Hamas claimed responsibility, even though the teens were kidnapped on the West Bank.

Where the hell did you get the idea that the Israeli government already knew the teens were dead, while they were searching for them? Citation or link needed.

I have sidestepped nothing. You tried a blatant strawman argument, and displayed some pretty lazy ignorance on your part, on this issue.



BTW - Lost in the stupidity in some arguments this thread, just to bring up something I and CRedskinsRule seem to have forgotten about the warnings Israel gives before targeting buildings. The Israelis are targeting buildings where they think Hamas is hiding weapons. Buildings that Hamas has hid weapons like homes, schools, tunnels (built with how much construction material?). Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb.

edit 2: Another thin, CRedskinsrule. Interesting point about psychological warfare being used this conflict. Like the rockets Hamas has been firing a long time, despite the Israelis doing a pretty good job of minimizing casualties. Another aspect of Hamas' attacks that shouldn't get overlooked this discussion. Kinda sad, that Israel warning residents to evacuate from imminent attack, and Hamas firing indiscriminately at Isrealis, might be considered morally equivalent, but I guess if you blur your focus enough, everything looks the same. Kind of like saying we were as bad in Iraq as ISIS is now. Both groups blow up buildings and shoot people too. Or should finer distinctions be drawn?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

...Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb.

I am trying to be done, but this statements goes directly to the heart of the warnings being more for psych warfare than effective warning. Any effective warning would give the terrorist segment of the area time to flee (and they would be the most able to flee, leaving only innocents behind).

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not making Hamas out to be some sainted organization that is simply misunderstood. Their roots are founded in terrorism. AND I can certainly accept that Hamas bears some level (not 100%, but not 0 either) of accountability for the civilian deaths. But Israel needs to be accountable for it's acts too, and while the enemy is hiding bombs among civilians, that too seems to be an obvious given when you factor in the size of the region, the general support for palestinian organizations vs support for the israeli state, and the limited isolated areas in gaza. It's not like they have a Hamas Air Force Base, just outside of the population centers. (If they did, Israel would have destroyed it, and I would accept that as a consequence of battle)

And I don't maintain that it is an easy undertaking for Israel, but I DO maintain citing random ineffective rocket launches, which in 15 years have done little in the way of effective attacks, as somehow a valid rationale for launching attacks over those same 15 years that have killed and wounded 10's of 1000's of innocents, and minimal military gains, is much closer to mass murder, and not remotely something that can be cited as a military victory.

I will try to put my position (what would I, the fat internet redskin fan that spends far too much time debating topics I can never impact, do):
As the US, I would tell Israel the Gaza airstrikes need to stop immediately, restitution and rebuilding for UN and obvious civilian buildings, ie schools and senior housing, would come out of US aid to Israel. I would put a motion for a 2 state solution before the UN Charter immediately, and set up UN peacekeeping forces to monitor all borders. I would make it clear that the US position is that both Palestinian and Israel have a right to exist, and must find a way to acknowledge peaceful coexistence. I would seek Russian, Chinese, Jordanian, and Egyptian agreement on these principles. I would put forward a no tolerance proposal for a joint tribunal in Jerusalem consisting of 2 Israeli, 2 Palestinian and 3 neutral (Swiss, Chinese, and/or South African/German delegations) arbitrator where all "war crime" type acts, terrorist kidnappings, bombing of civilian schools, etc will be brought forward. Punishment would be determined by the law governing the victim(s). All of these things would be presented to Egypt and Israel as conditions for accepting US Aid in the future.
Further, if Israel refuses to buy in, we let them know that we will abstain from any future security council votes on Israel's right to exist, and at the same time we let Hamas/Palestinian organizations know that with their buy in, we will sponsor an equivalent right to exist act in the UN Security council as Israel currently has.

See solved, and all I had to do was stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

... [The Hamas] roots are founded in terrorism. ...

You mean like the Israelis? I mean, it worked for Menachim Begin, why not the Hamas?

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I am trying to be done, but this statements goes directly to the heart of the warnings being more for psych warfare than effective warning. Any effective warning would give the terrorist segment of the area time to flee (and they would be the most able to flee, leaving only innocents behind).

Sorry I wasn't clear. I said "Giving enough warning time for terrorists to move all the weapons out would be pretty dumb." But this does bring up another macabre point. Who is making innocents stay behind in these buildings, after warnings have been issued?

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not making Hamas out to be some sainted organization that is simply misunderstood. Their roots are founded in terrorism. AND I can certainly accept that Hamas bears some level (not 100%, but not 0 either) of accountability for the civilian deaths. But Israel needs to be accountable for it's acts too, and while the enemy is hiding bombs among civilians, that too seems to be an obvious given when you factor in the size of the region, the general support for palestinian organizations vs support for the israeli state, and the limited isolated areas in gaza. It's not like they have a Hamas Air Force Base, just outside of the population centers. (If they did, Israel would have destroyed it, and I would accept that as a consequence of battle)

When Hamas gets to the extreme of telling its supposed people to ignore the warnings, that's beyond mere consequences, that's direct responsibility for deaths as much as the guys dropping the missiles.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

And I don't maintain that it is an easy undertaking for Israel, but I DO maintain citing random ineffective rocket launches, which in 15 years have done little in the way of effective attacks, as somehow a valid rationale for launching attacks over those same 15 years that have killed and wounded 10's of 1000's of innocents, and minimal military gains, is much closer to mass murder, and not remotely something that can be cited as a military victory.

I'm sure to the people being attacked both sides of the border, it's a military matter. Who says the rockets are ineffective, now that the Psy Ops aspect has been brought up? And which side is making an effort to reduce civilian casualties, while trying to strike at actual combatants?

Closer to mass murder? Than what? And which side are you accusing, the side that murders opposing factions and suspected informants. Or the first world military that takes more steps to reduce civilian casualties than we did in Iraq?

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I will try to put my position (what would I, the fat internet redskin fan that spends far too much time debating topics I can never impact, do):
As the US, I would tell Israel the Gaza airstrikes need to stop immediately, restitution and rebuilding for UN and obvious civilian buildings, ie schools and senior housing, would come out of US aid to Israel. I would put a motion for a 2 state solution before the UN Charter immediately, and set up UN peacekeeping forces to monitor all borders. I would make it clear that the US position is that both Palestinian and Israel have a right to exist, and must find a way to acknowledge peaceful coexistence. I would seek Russian, Chinese, Jordanian, and Egyptian agreement on these principles. I would put forward a no tolerance proposal for a joint tribunal in Jerusalem consisting of 2 Israeli, 2 Palestinian and 3 neutral (Swiss, Chinese, and/or South African/German delegations) arbitrator where all "war crime" type acts, terrorist kidnappings, bombing of civilian schools, etc will be brought forward. Punishment would be determined by the law governing the victim(s). All of these things would be presented to Egypt and Israel as conditions for accepting US Aid in the future.
Further, if Israel refuses to buy in, we let them know that we will abstain from any future security council votes on Israel's right to exist, and at the same time we let Hamas/Palestinian organizations know that with their buy in, we will sponsor an equivalent right to exist act in the UN Security council as Israel currently has.

See solved, and all I had to do was stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Israel bought into all the above. They just aren't going to surrender everything until the side that rejected an Egyptian proposed ceasefire, uses said UN buildings to store weapons, and keeps indiscriminately shooting rockets over the border, starts buying into it.