Disgusting

[skinsfanthru&thru]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Offiss, please go educate yourself instead of lumping all Muslim people together as a godless and vicious people. They are as much human as you and I. It's because our country is so intolerent of other religions and cultures that we hate them so.

I have to strongly disagree with what offiss said by it starting with god and democracy, that's not the only way to transform into a strong nation. maybe it is in your mind and that's your perrogative.

as for daseal, aren't u doing what u just critized offiss for doing by lumping all americans into one collective that is intolerent of other religions and cultures? I know I'm not intolerent of where someone wishes to put their faith and where they come from. If anything I'm more intrigued. But yet with muslims i do have to admit I've had stereotypical thoughts since 9-11, but i ask how could any person, not just in this country, not have similar thoughts from time to time. Of course I also wonder about the people(whites, blacks, asians, and hispanics) i see on the street when there is something in the news about a serial killer or a gang-related shooting. In my mind it's self preservation to keep my guard up and to get a good read on anybody I might encounter. I know there will always be fanatics of every religion and non-religions. Sometimes people misconstrew(sp?) the messages and warp them either to cleanse themselves of any guilt from something they have done or will do or they warp the messages to misguide others who r easily swayed.


In my opinion you(daseal) and offiss are the polar opposites on this topic, but I think(and hope) the majority of people are a mixture and balance of the two. and if the people of this country and/or world with either extremist viewpoint become the majority, then god, or whomever you believe in, help us.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsfanthru&thru

I have to strongly disagree with what offiss said by it starting with god and democracy, that's not the only way to transform into a strong nation. maybe it is in your mind and that's your perrogative.

as for daseal, aren't u doing what u just critized offiss for doing by lumping all americans into one collective that is intolerent of other religions and cultures? I know I'm not intolerent of where someone wishes to put their faith and where they come from. If anything I'm more intrigued. But yet with muslims i do have to admit I've had stereotypical thoughts since 9-11, but i ask how could any person, not just in this country, not have similar thoughts from time to time. Of course I also wonder about the people(whites, blacks, asians, and hispanics) i see on the street when there is something in the news about a serial killer or a gang-related shooting. In my mind it's self preservation to keep my guard up and to get a good read on anybody I might encounter. I know there will always be fanatics of every religion and non-religions. Sometimes people misconstrew(sp?) the messages and warp them either to cleanse themselves of any guilt from something they have done or will do or they warp the messages to misguide others who r easily swayed.


In my opinion you(daseal) and offiss are the polar opposites on this topic, but I think(and hope) the majority of people are a mixture and balance of the two. and if the people of this country and/or world with either extremist viewpoint become the majority, then god, or whomever you believe in, help us.

The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!

[skinsfanthru&thru]

Originally Posted by offiss

The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!

that's every human beings choice to make for themselves. plus by the time anyone truely learns the absolute truth, their dead. all i can do personally is live my life the best i can and I believe that if i do things will be fine when I've shed my mortal shell. I do agree that parts of the muslim belief are rather barbaric and ignorant, like how they treat their women, but I honestly don;t know about the foundations of the muslim faith so therefore I can't fully understand why they do some things the way they do.

plus I'm pretty sure this country was founded in the search of being able to practice any religion you wanted without the persecution of others.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by offiss

The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!

I was hanging in there (mostly) with you offiss until this one. I am not sure what view point it is that you are saying the country was founded upon but I think you are tying it to christianity. If that is the case, I would have to disagree. While there was a strong belief in the existence of an almighty by the founding fathers, many of them were not christians in the traditional sense or in the manner we understand christians today. Rather, for the most part they were masonic, a sect of christianity which was based on secrecy and mysticism. Further, outside of the anglican southern elites and the northeastern puritans (or puritan-like sects), the majority of the country did not consider themselves "religious" by old-world standards.

The role and force of religion in American culture, history and politics is considerably convoluted. While almost always unanimous in the belief that we are a country "blessed by God", within certain broad parameters, the understanding and description of the God that is blessing us has varied greatly and, quite frankly, from our inception that has not necessarily involved the "Christian" God as defined in modern day society.

Also, to assert that a nation founded upon islam is doomed is, I believe, overly broad. I think (and I may be wrong) that Islam is the majority religion in the world. Further, there are many stable prosperous countries in which islam is the majority religion but not necessarily the "state religion". In countries which adopt islam as the state religion, yes there seems to be a pattern of problems. I would suggest, however, that comes more from the adoption of a "state" religion rather than from the religion chosen. (By the way, the Roman Empire, the Athenian Empire, the Han & Chin dynasties, the Khanate, the Mayan, Incan and Aztec Empires all existed for much longer time period than the US has as of yet and did so without the benefit of christianity).

IF HOWEVER, it is your suggestion that, as part of our country's founding and fundamental to our continued growth, is the recognition a "God" does exist and that we, as his creatures, must acknowledge his existence and seek his way, then yes, I acknowledge that and agree that the many ways people have done that through the history of this country has enhanced its growth and prosperity.


Damn, I am too long winded. I am sure by the time I have posted this, everyone else will have responded and rendered my (once again) brilliant points and theories moot.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I was hanging in there (mostly) with you offiss until this one. I am not sure what view point it is that you are saying the country was founded upon but I think you are tying it to christianity. If that is the case, I would have to disagree. While there was a strong belief in the existence of an almighty by the founding fathers, many of them were not christians in the traditional sense or in the manner we understand christians today. Rather, for the most part they were masonic, a sect of christianity which was based on secrecy and mysticism. Further, outside of the anglican southern elites and the northeastern puritans (or puritan-like sects), the majority of the country did not consider themselves "religious" by old-world standards.

The role and force of religion in American culture, history and politics is considerably convoluted. While almost always unanimous in the belief that we are a country "blessed by God", within certain broad parameters, the understanding and description of the God that is blessing us has varied greatly and, quite frankly, from our inception that has not necessarily involved the "Christian" God as defined in modern day society.

Also, to assert that a nation founded upon islam is doomed is, I believe, overly broad. I think (and I may be wrong) that Islam is the majority religion in the world. Further, there are many stable prosperous countries in which islam is the majority religion but not necessarily the "state religion". In countries which adopt islam as the state religion, yes there seems to be a pattern of problems. I would suggest, however, that comes more from the adoption of a "state" religion rather than from the religion chosen. (By the way, the Roman Empire, the Athenian Empire, the Han & Chin dynasties, the Khanate, the Mayan, Incan and Aztec Empires all existed for much longer time period than the US has as of yet and did so without the benefit of christianity).

IF HOWEVER, it is your suggestion that, as part of our country's founding and fundamental to our continued growth, is the recognition a "God" does exist and that we, as his creatures, must acknowledge his existence and seek his way, then yes, I acknowledge that and agree that the many ways people have done that through the history of this country has enhanced its growth and prosperity.


Damn, I am too long winded. I am sure by the time I have posted this, everyone else will have responded and rendered my (once again) brilliant points and theories moot.

JR the last phrase you wrote probably sum's up a lot of what I was trying to say, you are very correct that not all our fore father's were christian's, but most of our law's and thier intent of the law's were set forth according to the bible, as well if you research personal quotes of men such as washington, and jefferson, you will find quotes like, the day this nation turn's it's back on the lord god shall surely be it's end, many quotes along those lines that really give an idea behind the intent of the structure of this country, I am very aware of the critisism that comes these day's with crediting GOD for any good fortune that is bestowed upon us as individual's, as well as a country, but that lack of acknowledgement is exactly what the fore father's had warned us about, but it was only a matter of time before our country started to beat it's chest and discredit god for the abundance in which he has taken care of us, and claim credit for ourselves, it's the nature of man kind, and it's not just here in america, but we are the final frontier.