Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just was

...and that's the problem in its entirety. A dumbass owner who would fuck up the team's chances of winning just so his new toy could succeed. Yeah..fuck those other 52 guys and winning. I just want to be right on my call to make the RGIII trade! The more and more I see about Dan forcing the Robert issue, the more I believe Shanahan that it was in fact Dan/Bruce that wanted that trade. The problem with people like that is they don't understand that sunk costs are what they are. Sunk.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just was

That to me is insane on so many levels. First, what the hell kind of vetting process occured to hire a HC that wasn't on board with developing the franchise's greatest assest a real shot? That is speaks to an insane level of incompetence.

To have an organization split with the coaching staff and the ownership being of 2 separate minds on such an important issue that early into the season is nuts. Its no wonder the season was a debacle. The HC-playcaller-QB dynamic is vital part of team success. If the HC-playcaller doesn't believe in the QB from that early in the season its not going to work. Here's another nugget. The Viking's game came on short week following the monday night game. Smoot correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it rumored that Dan had a role in Griffin playing that week? Now, being a short week, from what I know NFL teams often keep the same gameplan with only minor tweaks because of lack of time. Now the Viking's vs Tampa game is a clear example of how Jay's lack of faith/support impacts the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. Griffin had a good game vs the Vikings. With basically all the cards stacked against him. Coming off an injury, playing in short week of game prep and rumored of being forced into the line-up. Now compare that to the Tampa Bay game. Coming off a bye week, with ample time for a complete gameplan and Griffin not only had the worst game of his career but looked u n p r e p a r e d in the process. That's what happens when a Hc-playcaller doesn't beleive in the player he's gameplanning or calling plays for. Tacitly or unwittingly he's preparing that player to fail because he already doesn't think the player can do it. He's already discarding some plays that might work because he doesn't give the player the benefit of the doubt. I could go on but this post is getting way longer then I intended so I apologize in advance for the wall of text run on nature.

Even without having any insider information and simply from watching the games I knew there was something amiss with Jay-Griffin pairing from a coaching perspective. Starting from the few snaps Griffin took in preseason to Jay's tepid at best comments towards Griffin (even after he played well) compared to his more supportive comments about Kirk/Colt (even after being shut-out against the Rams). I think everyone knew there was something amiss given his comments towards Griffin after the Tampa game.

I think some of us can agree that Jay didn't want Griffin or at least didn't believe in Griffin from early on in their relationship. But, unlike most, I put the majority of the blame for that situation on the coach. Harbaugh drafted Kaepernick to be his guy. But he coached up Alex Smith and got the most out of him even though Smith wasn't his guy. That's coaching. But I digress.
At the end of the season I though why in the hell repeat this mess of forcing a QB on a HC? My thinking was this: if you choose to keep Jay let him choose his QB and move on with his regime as he sees fit. Allow him to sink or swim with his chosen QBs. Get whatever value you can for Griffin and move forward with the organization being on 1 accord, 1 mindset. Don't allow Jay to use Griffin as a shield. To me the irony of last season was that without Jay having Griffin to kick around he would have looked even worse because his chosed QBs didn't get it done. Kirk threw picks that cost games, Colt was ran the offense best he could but was also shut-out (which didn't happen to either Kirk nor Griffin even as poorly as they played) and Colt got injured.

Also, I remember, even recently, John Keim saying that Griffin was the best looking QB in camp last year and that Kirk nor Colt blew him away last year. Outside of Theisman very few sports media were saying that Kirk was challenging for the starting spot. But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?

Lets not forget that Kirk at no point (prior to Jay) performed better then Griffin. Even when the Shanahan's benched Griffin and wanted to prop Kirk he lost all his starts and didn't post better numbers. In fact Cousins stats were terrible pre-Gruden. Numbers don't add up for Kirk Cousins believers | Comcast SportsNet Washington
"Of all the signal callers with at least 150 pass attempts in 2013, Cousins ranked dead last in Passer Rating at 58.4. Behind Cousins came the Jets' Geno Smith at 66.5 and the Raiders' Terrelle Pryor at 69.1. Griffin came in at 82.2, not impressive, yet still significantly better than Cousins."

I completely disagree with the narrative that Jay was giving up on Griffin for the sake of the other 52. To me that's BS. COACH! That's what he's here to do, he's not a bystander he's the director, the chef, he's in charge of the operation he's responsible for the product. If Jay underestimated the task that's no one's fault but his own and maybe Bruce depending on who had the final say on building a staff without a QB coach and pairing a rookie HC with a rookie OC.

Everyone seems to accept the notion Jay was ready to give up Griffin heading into week 1 without really ever questioning whether it was right for a brand new HC to give up on the potential franchise QB without ever seeing a regular season snap. C'mon. That's crazy.

Either way I'm glad to hear of a seeming paradigm shift in both rhetoric and philosophy. But (1) it doesn't erase Jay's lack of belief last year and at the end of the day Jay is still the HC and playcaller (2) real games have yet to be played.

I have never wanted to be more dead wrong about anything Redskins related.
But, Jay's lack of belief in Griffin imho doom Griffin as player here.

[artmonkforhallofamein07]

I agree with you 30 gut and I hope that we don't ruin RG III here because of a stupid hire of a HC.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 30gut

That to me is insane on so many levels. First, what the hell kind of vetting process occured to hire a HC that wasn't on board with developing the franchise's greatest assest a real shot? That is speaks to an insane level of incompetence.

Well there wasn't much of a vetting process in my opinion. I think I told you guys in October/November 2013 that Jay was going to be the guy

To have an organization split with the coaching staff and the ownership being of 2 separate minds on such an important issue that early into the season is nuts. Its no wonder the season was a debacle. The HC-playcaller-QB dynamic is vital part of team success. If the HC-playcaller doesn't believe in the QB from that early in the season its not going to work.

That said Jay was genuinely excited and prepared to work with RG3. And yeah maybe he panicked but RG3 was awful, just awful, in every way last summer.

Here's another nugget. The Viking's game came on short week following the monday night game. Smoot correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it rumored that Dan had a role in Griffin playing that week? Now, being a short week, from what I know NFL teams often keep the same gameplan with only minor tweaks because of lack of time. Now the Viking's vs Tampa game is a clear example of how Jay's lack of faith/support impacts the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. Griffin had a good game vs the Vikings. With basically all the cards stacked against him. Coming off an injury, playing in short week of game prep and rumored of being forced into the line-up. Now compare that to the Tampa Bay game. Coming off a bye week, with ample time for a complete gameplan and Griffin not only had the worst game of his career but looked u n p r e p a r e d in the process. That's what happens when a Hc-playcaller doesn't beleive in the player he's gameplanning or calling plays for. Tacitly or unwittingly he's preparing that player to fail because he already doesn't think the player can do it. He's already discarding some plays that might work because he doesn't give the player the benefit of the doubt. I could go on but this post is getting way longer then I intended so I apologize in advance for the wall of text run on nature.

Yes, it was Snyder's call. Fair to say you don't see reason to put any of the responsibility on Griffin?

Even without having any insider information and simply from watching the games I knew there was something amiss with Jay-Griffin pairing from a coaching perspective. Starting from the few snaps Griffin took in preseason to Jay's tepid at best comments towards Griffin (even after he played well) compared to his more supportive comments about Kirk/Colt (even after being shut-out against the Rams). I think everyone knew there was something amiss given his comments towards Griffin after the Tampa game.

I think some of us can agree that Jay didn't want Griffin or at least didn't believe in Griffin from early on in their relationship. But, unlike most, I put the majority of the blame for that situation on the coach. Harbaugh drafted Kaepernick to be his guy. But he coached up Alex Smith and got the most out of him even though Smith wasn't his guy. That's coaching. But I digress.
At the end of the season I though why in the hell repeat this mess of forcing a QB on a HC? My thinking was this: if you choose to keep Jay let him choose his QB and move on with his regime as he sees fit. Allow him to sink or swim with his chosen QBs. Get whatever value you can for Griffin and move forward with the organization being on 1 accord, 1 mindset. Don't allow Jay to use Griffin as a shield. To me the irony of last season was that without Jay having Griffin to kick around he would have looked even worse because his chosed QBs didn't get it done. Kirk threw picks that cost games, Colt was ran the offense best he could but was also shut-out (which didn't happen to either Kirk nor Griffin even as poorly as they played) and Colt got injured.

Also, I remember, even recently, John Keim saying that Griffin was the best looking QB in camp last year and that Kirk nor Colt blew him away last year. Outside of Theisman very few sports media were saying that Kirk was challenging for the starting spot. But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?

Keim said this about last year? He and I were just talking about this the other day, not what I heard from him. What do you mean by the last line?

Lets not forget that Kirk at no point (prior to Jay) performed better then Griffin. Even when the Shanahan's benched Griffin and wanted to prop Kirk he lost all his starts and didn't post better numbers. In fact Cousins stats were terrible pre-Gruden. Numbers don't add up for Kirk Cousins believers | Comcast SportsNet Washington
"Of all the signal callers with at least 150 pass attempts in 2013, Cousins ranked dead last in Passer Rating at 58.4. Behind Cousins came the Jets' Geno Smith at 66.5 and the Raiders' Terrelle Pryor at 69.1. Griffin came in at 82.2, not impressive, yet still significantly better than Cousins."

I'm not a Kirk fan. I've always said he's a Gus Frerotte type. Long career, spot starter

I completely disagree with the narrative that Jay was giving up on Griffin for the sake of the other 52. To me that's BS. COACH! That's what he's here to do, he's not a bystander he's the director, the chef, he's in charge of the operation he's responsible for the product. If Jay underestimated the task that's no one's fault but his own and maybe Bruce depending on who had the final say on building a staff without a QB coach and pairing a rookie HC with a rookie OC.

Everyone seems to accept the notion Jay was ready to give up Griffin heading into week 1 without really ever questioning whether it was right for a brand new HC to give up on the potential franchise QB without ever seeing a regular season snap. C'mon. That's crazy.

I don't know what your point is here.

Either way I'm glad to hear of a seeming paradigm shift in both rhetoric and philosophy. But (1) it doesn't erase Jay's lack of belief last year and at the end of the day Jay is still the HC and playcaller (2) real games have yet to be played.

I have never wanted to be more dead wrong about anything Redskins related.
But, Jay's lack of belief in Griffin imho doom Griffin as player here.

I think Griffin is done here

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

That said Jay was genuinely excited and prepared to work with RG3. And yeah maybe he panicked but RG3 was awful, just awful, in every way last summer.

That was my recollection. The narrative "JG never liked RGIII" strikes me as just wrong. Initially, Gruden was saying all the right things about RGIII. That is until he saw him actually play:

Robert Griffin III and Jay Gruden: Inside a budding relationship - NFL.com

And yet, what has struck Gruden the most thus far is ...

"How smart [RGIII] is," Gruden said, in a private moment after Wednesday's OTA practice. "He picked up everything effortlessly. He works hard at it, he studies it, he understands the position, and he's willing to learn and willing to take coaching. A guy with as much success as he's had, as early as he is in this young stage of his life, some guys are like, 'Eh, I don't need your coaching, I don't need this, I wanna do it my way.' He's not that way at all. He wants to be coached, he wants to learn the game, he wants to study.

"He wants to be the greatest. And he knows he has a long way to go, which is refreshing from a guy that's had a Heisman Trophy and as much publicity as he's had. He knows he has work to do, and he's willing to put in the work. That's strikes me as ... I just wasn't expecting that."

... "I'm not gonna be the type of guy that's like, 'Hey, don't ever scramble. Stay in the pocket. I want you to be like Tom Brady,' " Gruden said. "Part of the thing that draws you to a guy like that is that he's not like everyone else. He's a special player playing the position like nobody else has played it. So we have to use his strengths, also. Maybe sometimes, he makes a poor decision or takes a hard hit that, hopefully, he gets up from. In the meantime, part of my job is to reduce the risk."

(The article is filled with great quotes. Good read to see where JG/RGIII were a year ago prior to TC). JG came in thinking he had a shiny new toy to play with at QB and found out he had a raw player incapable of executing basic drop back fundamentals ("umm ... how many steps do I take in a 3-step drop coach?"). I am sure it was like coming down Christmas morning and thinking you're getting a pony but finding out all you got was horse sh**.

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think Griffin is done here

That makes me sad. Opinion or what you are hearing, or a little of both? Why? Is there anything you see happening that could change that?

I hope that he is not. I hope he shows enough to change JG's mind. I hope JG tweaks the offense to play to some of the things that are better suited to RGIII's skill set. I hope that the relationship between RGIII and JG can be repaired.

<sigh> ... but, it's the Skins so I will remind myself that hope is a foolish, foolish waste with this team.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Also, I remember, even recently, John Keim saying that Griffin was the best looking QB in camp last year and that Kirk nor Colt blew him away last year. Outside of Theisman very few sports media were saying that Kirk was challenging for the starting spot. But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?

Absolutely no one was saying RGIII was the best performing QB in TC last year. Find me one source that gave that opinion. Here are a few that make it clear he was not:

Jay Gruden couldn’t admit that Kirk Cousins was better running his offense than RGIII - The Washington Post

Let’s not sugarcoat the past two months: Gruden was having a hard time getting Griffin to grasp the principles of the drop-back passing system he was teaching. If Cousins and Griffin had come to camp as undrafted rookies, Cousins may have opened the season as the starter.

What happens if Kirk Cousins is a better QB than Robert Griffin III? - CBSSports.com

Last week, the Redskins and Patriots practiced together before facing off in Thursday's preseason game. Tom Brady didn't play in the game but he didn't need to; he's a future Hall of Famer -- you know what you're getting. Griffin, meanwhile, is a different story.

It might explain all the post-joint-practice media reports comparing Brady to RG3. The general sense of those reports: "Brady is masterful, Griffin is raw." That's like comparing a 13-month-old just learning to walk to Usain Bolt. Yes, they're both bipeds, but one is slightly more experienced than the other.

Quick-hit thoughts around NFL and New England Patriots - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN

One of my biggest takeaways from Patriots-Redskins joint practices was surprise that Robert Griffin III didn’t look like the best quarterback on his own team. In fact, I thought Kirk Cousins was better than him, from the perspective of running the offense, fine-tuned mechanics and how decisively the ball came out of his hand. I wondered if I was alone, and then heard the same sentiment echoed by some others in the Patriots organization.

Looked for something by Keim but couldn’t find it.

[SmootSmack]

I'm torn about it, because I get the investment made in Griffin and I don't think either Cousins or McCoy could ever reach what Griffin is capable of. On the one hand you let your coaches coach, on the other it's your right (perhaps duty) to step in when you see he's making a clear mistake. Gruden, or someone close to Gruden, seemed to have gotten in his head that he could win sooner with one of the other two. But at what cost? This team wasn't going to the playoffs? Why not put RG3 out there and get him the experience he needed. But Cousins was playing well and it's hard to tell the other guys you're not going to go with the hot hand.

The way Gruden saw it, Cousins could start, McCoy could be ready if/when needed and RG3 could sit and learn. Owner, somewhat understandably, wasn't having it.

[artmonkforhallofamein07]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm torn about it, because I get the investment made in Griffin and I don't think either Cousins or McCoy could ever reach what Griffin is capable of. On the one hand you let your coaches coach, on the other it's your right (perhaps duty) to step in when you see he's making a clear mistake. Gruden, or someone close to Gruden, seemed to have gotten in his head that he could win sooner with one of the other two. But at what cost? This team wasn't going to the playoffs? Why not put RG3 out there and get him the experience he needed. But Cousins was playing well and it's hard to tell the other guys you're not going to go with the hot hand.

The way Gruden saw it, Cousins could start, McCoy could be ready if/when needed and RG3 could sit and learn. Owner, somewhat understandably, wasn't having it.

I can understand both sides from last year. But at this point McCoy isn't anything more than he is and Cousins has a major issue that I don't know if he will ever be able to coached out of.

RG III has the upside that we need to start seeing this year or its time to go in a new direction all together. Which would suck ...

[KI Skins Fan]

[JoeRedskin]

and then there was this from the END of last year:

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

So, on the RGIII / Gruden front: Insider Buzz: 'Skins Practice Incident Continues to Prove RG3 Is 'Uncoachable' | Bleacher Report

If true, it is really disheartening. The crux of it is this: In practice last week, during 7 on 7 drills, the O is in shotgun formation with 3 WR's split right and 2 WR's split left. Before the play, Gruden comes out and talks to RGIII telling him to throw right as that is where his play will be 95% of the time. Apparently, when the play is then run, Griffin throws left to the 2 WR side and makes the wrong read leading to an interception in practice.

Like I said, if true, that is really bad. The coach tells you where to throw, you ignore him, and make a bad play doing it you're way. If I'm Gruden, I just don't know what to say to that - other than a stream of expletives.

[SmootSmack]

I believe Keim said RG3 had good and bad moments last summer

[Alvin Walton]

Dear Robert,

We invested a feck ton of stuff for you.
You better kick ass this season or the fans will crucify you. Myself included.

Your Pal,

Alvin

[30gut]

Thoughts on Washington Redskins QB Robert Griffin III - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN

Originally Posted by John Keim

Yes, Kirk Cousins looked pretty solid against the Patriots in their two days of practices last week. I don't think the Redskins' coaches would disagree that he might have looked better than Griffin as well. But even the Redskins' coaches would point out: Cousins was not throwing against Darrelle Revis or Brandon Browner and wasn't facing the Patriots' top pass-rushers. So they took what they saw within context. But Cousins has not had a better camp.

Originally Posted by Keim

Cousins has looked sharp at times this camp; other times he has made some bad throws. He, too, is a growing, young quarterback. He was decisive in the game against New England; he also nearly threw an interception on his first pass to a double-covered Aldrick Robinson. If one quarterback was lighting it up all the time and the other was not, it would be noted. That hasn't been the case. Both Cousins and Griffin have had good and bad moments while they learn. Griffin needs to mature as a passer, but he also needs to have the time to do so. He's not exactly a rookie again, but in some ways he's starting over -- albeit with two years of starting experience. If Griffin were further along in his career, I'd say there'd be more concern about his game. But this is the first camp where he's worked mostly from the pocket. For now, he's receiving an education. Some days there's progress and others there's hair-pulling.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well there wasn't much of a vetting process in my opinion. I think I told you guys in October/November 2013 that Jay was going to be the guy

Yeah, it appears there wasn't much of vetting process when you end up with a HC almost instantly at logger heads with the potential franchise QB. The HC's plan for developing Griffin should have been a critical part of the vetting process.

Now, that we have Jay we need to support him and imho supporting him doesn't consist of forcing a QB on him that he doesn't want. Which is why I'm surprised they didn't draft a developmental QB somewhere.

That said Jay was genuinely excited and prepared to work with RG3. And yeah maybe he panicked but RG3 was awful, just awful, in every way last summer.

Excited I can agree with prepared? We're not going to agree there. The results would indicate a lack of preparation. And when you begin without a QB coach, and try to groom a rookie OC, adopting an impetuous stance toward Griffin early in the 'development process' as opposed to patient stance all speak to lack of preparation in my mind.

Also, we certainly disagree about Griffin's level of play compared to the other QBs last summer.

Yes, it was Snyder's call. Fair to say you don't see reason to put any of the responsibility on Griffin?

Not fair at all because I've already stated that Griffin failures and struggles are facts. I am not disputing he struggled. I'm looking beyond that and trying to understand the 'why'.

Is it likewise fair to say you don't put any of the responsibility for the disparity between Griffin's performance in the Vikings game (on a short week, likely using a gameplan designed for McCoy) vs the Tampa game (coming after a bye week where the staff had ample time to develop a 'Griffin' gameplan) on the coaching staff?

Keim said this about last year? He and I were just talking about this the other day, not what I heard from him.

I posted the article I referred to, Keim also said the same in several espn980 radio spots and often meet with challenge and surprise especially from Sheehan.

What do you mean by the last line? edit:

Lol, I don't even know anymore. I was rambling so much. Give me a second to find it.

Oh, I meant that for Kirk and Colt to look better then Griffin means the offense isn't being catered towards Griffin and that in and of itself speaks to Jay's lack of belief. That indicates to me that Jay is putting his system over Griffin. The only way they look better then Kirk/Colt is in a straight drop back rhythm west coast offense. So running an offense that doesn't fit the player your ostensibly trying to develop would be a cause for concern for me. Thankfully it appears the offense is being tailored to fit Griffin more then before and not surprising the consequent is Griffin (thus far) has looked better then Kirk/Colt.

I'm not a Kirk fan. I've always said he's a Gus Frerotte type. Long career, spot starter

I actually have nothing against Kirk/Colt. They are system QBs and Jay is a system HC. I think Jay likewise had a quick trigger on Kirk. But then again even if he wanted its likely that the ownership wouldn't look fondly on re-inserting Kirk over Griffin after Kirk's struggles. But to be clear I think Kirk can put up good numbers in Jay's offense. Whether or not that leads to wins depends on Jay's improvement as HC/playcaller and Kirk's cutting down on turnovers.

I don't know what your point is here.

Gotta look at it again myself.
edit: Oh, my point was that Jay as the HC is accountable for the performance of the team, including the QBs. Jay being done with Griffin early in training camp Griffin or wanting to start Cousins isn't what a coach does...to me its the opposite of coaching. A HC doesn't get to stop doing his job of player development because they become frustrated.

I think Griffin is done here

I tend to agree. At the end of the season I was 100% certain it was over. I figure you either choose the HC or the QB. And it made sense to me to keep the HC, that is why I wanted them to trade Griffin for whatever they could get. For me I can't get passed the forced marriage between a HC and a QB he doesn't believe in. BUT IF the major offseason talking point/narrative is genuine and there actually has been a paradigm shift in sentiment and philosophy then Griffin has a chance. But, I'm not a crazy person either I recognize that its a big 'if' and the odds are long.

[Evilgrin]

I don't think Gruden likes any of his QBs as a starter. He likes Colt for his knowledge, but knows he can't play as a starter in the NFL. He definately doesn't like Cousins.