Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

All true (well I've only heard the agent part from Chris so I can't confirm that)

Let's go back to this.

Originally Posted by 30gut

That my qualify as a "fact" to you but it doesn't even come close to factual to me and I'm guessing it doesn't for most people.

And again even IF your "fact" were true it should be disconcerting that your new HC clearly was never on board with developing the franchise QB. You think Jay would have been hired if his plan consisted of moving on from Griffin prior to the season even starting?

Still think lil Danny isn't making decisions on the field as well?

Originally Posted by 30gut

The fact is football assessment seldom lends itself to simple soundbite analysis. There is rarely 1 "reason" for the success or failure of a play, player, coaching staff or season.

Was Griffin's inexperience in a rhythm drop back passing offense part of his struggles? Sure.

But the playcalling, game plan and coaching also played a role in his struggles. After all Griffin was even less experienced as rookie but was better as a rhythm drop back passer in that system then now. Heck, no QB was less 'prp-style' then Cam and look what he did as a rookie.

First off, I never said that his in-experience was the ONLY issue at hand. I said it was a fact that Griffin struggled due to his in-experience with a pro-style offense, not because of Jay's faith in RG. If Robert performed bad because he was worried about Jay's faith in him, it would say a lot about him and he probably shouldn't be in the NFL. No, Robert is arrogant as noted by his attitude and why two coaches have had difficulty trying to get through to him.

Also, to mention Cam's rookie season is laughable. You do realize they ran a read option type offense like we did right? It wasn't a pro-style in the slightest. Also, you've notice Cam's yards and attempts have been dropping steadily the last 3 years with last year being his worst year ever. His transition hasn't turned the corner yet I can assure you.

One last thing, how can you deem play calling an issue? Do you know what defenses were called? Do you know the counter to them? Who's the say the players didn't execute the play while the call was the right one? I'm not saying it didn't play an issue but do you really know for sure or guessing?

[30gut]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Still think lil Danny isn't making decisions on the field as well?

Easy kemosabe, lol.

There is a far cry from the OWNER of the team being included in the decision making process to the owner "making decisions on the field". You understand that those aren't the same thing right? Also, remember how this whole exchange started? YOU said that it was a "fact" that Jay wanted to start Cousins at the beginning of the season. I said that did not meet the definition of a fact to most people. Nothing you have said since then changes that speculation into fact. And like I said, even if it were a "fact" then the very notion that a new HC wanted to bench the then potential franchise QB before ever playing him in 1 regular season game is crazy and is something that should be disconcerting to all fans.

Originally Posted by You

First off, I never said that his in-experience was the ONLY issue at hand. I said it was a fact that Griffin struggled due to his in-experience with a pro-style offense, not because of Jay's faith in RG....

Good we're getting somewhere. We agree that Griffin's inexperience was an issue, just not the only issue.

My point is that inconjunction with Griffin's inexperience Jay's lack of faith played a large role in Griffin's struggles. Jay's lack of faith in Griffin, as you pointed out, was apparent early during Jay's regime even before the start of the regular season. Jay is the HC and playcaller paired up with a rookie OC is at the wheel of the offense. His vision guides the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. How can Jay's lack of faith in Griffin not impact the gameplan, playcalling and coaching as it pertain to Griffin a player that the HC, playcaller and OC lack faith in?

Originally Posted by You

If Robert performed bad because he was worried about Jay's faith in him, it would say a lot about him and he probably shouldn't be in the NFL.

Clear strawman.

No, Robert is arrogant as noted by his attitude and why two coaches have had difficulty trying to get through to him.

Maybe Robert is arrogant maybe he isn't. Personally I think Robert's level of arrogance is unknowable from our vantage point and based on what I've read about Robert I find it very hard to believe that Robert's level of arrogance is an issue. Certainly isn't an issue worth discussion for me.

I'm not going back over the cess pool of scapegoating and blameshifting that happened with Mike Shanahan.

You can chase these rabbits on your own. I've already entertained more of your speculations and perceptions then I intended.

Also, to mention Cam's rookie season is laughable. You do realize they ran a read option type offense like we did right? It wasn't a pro-style in the slightest.

You obviously missed my point. My point is that Cam's rookie season was a huge success because they catered the offense to him. Of course it wasn't pro-style, that is my entire point. Cam was far from pro-style but the catered the offense to him and had success.

One last thing, how can you deem play calling an issue? Do you know what defenses were called? Do you know the counter to them? Who's the say the players didn't execute the play while the call was the right one? I'm not saying it didn't play an issue but do you really know for sure or guessing?

I know this is pointless but anyhow....I could go in depth about playcalling theory and philosophy but that would be a long discussion since we would be starting from square one. But I'll leave you with this. Every OC in the league can draw up plays that work. Heck they all work on paper. But the heart of coaching is understanding which Xs and Os maximize your personnel. That didn't happen last year. Look at all the changes the rhetoric thus far points to...more commitment to the run game, more play-action, more movement passes, more "tweaks" (as Kiem put it) to cater to Griffin. If those weren't issues last year then why change?

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by 30gut

There is a far cry from the OWNER of the team being included in the decision making process to the owner "making decisions on the field". You understand that those aren't the same thing right?

That wasn't meant that Dan is included in game planning or he's up in the box with a headset on or making the starting roster. I merely meant that Snyder meddles with things even as far as who the starting QB should be.

Originally Posted by 30gut

And like I said, even if it were a "fact" then the very notion that a new HC wanted to bench the then potential franchise QB before ever playing him in 1 regular season game is crazy and is something that should be disconcerting to all fans.

Personally, I think Jay didn't realize how much work Robert really needed. How can you tell really until you get in there and see for yourself. That and Jay probably said what he needed to in order to land the job. I'm not discounting that fact either. He very well could have pulled a bait and switch on Danny. Especially seeing as how his brother Jon didn't really care for Robert's QB ability. Maybe Dan is right about him stealing money. Seems a lot of people do that to Dan. (except the fans)

Originally Posted by 30gut

Jay is the HC and playcaller paired up with a rookie OC is at the wheel of the offense. His vision guides the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. How can Jay's lack of faith in Griffin not impact the gameplan, playcalling and coaching as it pertain to Griffin a player that the HC, playcaller and OC lack faith in?

His faith in Robert would definitely impact the game plan, there is no doubt to that. His lack of faith in Robert shouldn't dictate the play by Robert though. There is a difference. Jay knows that he's not going to be able to run certain things if Griffin doesn't grasp the offense or can go through progressions like he's supposed to. He'll have to cater to what Robert does do good, which is play action and roll outs. However, when you limit your chances of succeeding as well. It also doesn't help when you are forced to play an individual that directly impacts your offense negatively. The object here is to win, not develop Robert. Developing Robert should have begin in years 1 and 2 with him on THE BENCH LIKE I SAID LONG AGO. It still pisses me off to no end they did what they did. Little Danny had to have his shiny new toy though.

Originally Posted by 30gut

I'm not going back over the cess pool of scapegoating and blameshifting that happened with Mike Shanahan.

You don't have to, but you should heed the words of a man who's coached the likes of Elway, Montana and Young. I think he was more honest than not the past couple interviews he did.

Originally Posted by 30gut

Look at all the changes the rhetoric thus far points to...more commitment to the run game, more play-action, more movement passes, more "tweaks" (as Kiem put it) to cater to Griffin. If those weren't issues last year then why change?

Here is the problem. They tailored an offense around Griffin's abilities and won. However, Griffin didn't want to run that offense. This had been clearly backed up by multiple inside sources (direct and indirect) during that 2012 year. Griffin wanted to be a pocket passer and didn't want to run the offense tailored to him. He saw himself as a Peyton Manning, but never wanted to put in the film room time that Peyton Manning did. He knew the RO wasn't going to keep him around long health wise. Yes I believe Shanny when he said Robert came in there with blessing from the owner on what to run that following off-season. Yes I believe Shanny when he said that he wasn't ready for a conventional offense yet, but had the ability to do it eventually. So this still falls on Robert somewhat for not being coach-able. This is two coaches now that has said the exact same thing. He better get on board fast because the clock is ticking on his career and it's about over. He isn't going to get another forced starting gig in the NFL after this. Can he do it? Certainly. Will he? No idea. I hope for our sakes he does. It'll mean we are most likely winning.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

His faith in Robert would definitely impact the game plan, there is no doubt to that. His lack of faith in Robert shouldn't dictate the play by Robert though.

It might not "dictate" but it certainly impacts the result.

As an instructor and former youth coach I can tell you without a doubt that belief or lack of thereof in a player or student can become a self fulfilling prophesy. And clearly there are things that Jay didn't do last year that had negtive impact on Griffin's performance. We've been over some of them and many of them are things the staff and media have already made talking points about how they're gonna change this year. The same concepts and philosophy that could have been used to develop Griffin are many of the same concepts that are part of winning formula. Run the ball, which we didn't do enough. Use more play-action, which we didn't do enough. Move the pocket, which we didn't do enough. Throw mix in more screen game, which we didn't do enough. The problem is those concepts aren't how Jay called his offense last year and don't neccesarily fit his vision of his offense. Maybe he's changed. Time will tell. But to say that Jay's faith in Griffin would definitely impact the gameplan then by extention it impacts the result.

Here is the problem. They tailored an offense around Griffin's abilities and won. However, Griffin didn't want to run that offense. This had been clearly backed up by multiple inside sources (direct and indirect) during that 2012 year. Griffin wanted to be a pocket passer and didn't want to run the offense tailored to him. He saw himself as a Peyton Manning, but never wanted to put in the film room time that Peyton Manning did. He knew the RO wasn't going to keep him around long health wise. Yes I believe Shanny when he said Robert came in there with blessing from the owner on what to run that following off-season.

Here we go with this slanted narrative. Beginning of 2013 fresh off recovering from a shredded knee would you want to be running read-option to start the season? Is that so crazy that a kid, and he is a kid, would be wary even nervous about it? And guess what? Coaches are paid the big dollars to handle situations like that. Everyone acts like the resulting outcome had to be bad following whatever Griffin said about not wanting to run read option to start the season after recovering from a torn MCL/LCL whatever. It could have been something as simple as "..hey kid I understand. You tore up your knee and you're nervous maybe even scared about...blah..blah soothing father figure arm on the shoulder we're in this together moment". Then deal with the owner later. Whatever. Shanny handled it poorly and he's done and rightfully so.

Also to put facts on the table Griffin DID IN FACT RUN READ OPTION AS EARLY AS WEEK 4 of the 2013 season. Yet for some reason the tiny little fact that Griffin actually ran read-option that year gets over looked. Your boy, Shanny even said that Griffin came to him and said ~coach I'm ready to run it now.

Yes I believe Shanny when he said that he wasn't ready for a conventional offense yet, but had the ability to do it eventually. So this still falls on Robert somewhat for not being coach-able. This is two coaches now that has said the exact same thing.

Huh? Back to double talking Shanny. Yes he did say Griffin's transtion would take time so we hired a HC that didn't hire a QB coach and decided he was ready to give up on the transition process before the regular season starts. And that's Griffin's fault for being uncoachable?

Its been an interesting look into how the otherside thinks. But at this point, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.