What are you looking for vs the Lions?

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

...I don't think you can learn anything about the secondary in the preseason unless the team actually gets out of its base defense.

Why do you think you can't learn about the secondary in preseason playing base D? Honest question.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Why do you think you can't learn about the secondary in preseason playing base D? Honest question.

I guess a blanket statement like that isn't the best thing in the world. I guess you can learn that Hall appears healthy enough (or not) to run and cut and keep up with WRs on breaks, you can see whether Goldson is coming up and being physical against the run, basic football stuff like that.

But specifically with Barry's defense, the DBs are taught to read the QB's eyes instead of pattern matching and running with the receiver. And the reason you do that is to ball-hawk and try to come up with interceptions.

Of course, if the QB has time to sit back and look you off, your secondary will get exposed no matter what. We didn't play Kerrigan or Galette in game 1, and per normal preseason games we didn't tip our hand on scheme by showing a lot of our blitz packages. Basically - we didn't get pressure on the QB, and I don't expect us to get pressure on the QB when we play the Lions.

The pass rush pressure and the reading of QB eye movement by the DBs go hand in hand - pass rush pressure leads to rushed throws, which lead to INTs if the DBs are looking at the QB.

Our whole defense is built around stopping the run with the beef up front, and one-gap penetration to disrupt the passing game, with the DBs being taught to take advantage of that. It is an aggressive style that guns for turnovers and big plays.

Until I see us getting pressure like we'll finally be trying to do in Week 1, I'll withhold judgment on the effectiveness of the secondary.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I guess a blanket statement like that isn't the best thing in the world. I guess you can learn that Hall appears healthy enough (or not) to run and cut and keep up with WRs on breaks, you can see whether Goldson is coming up and being physical against the run, basic football stuff like that.

What you call basic football stuff is the exact stuff that I feel can be evaluated during preseason games. The basics can be evaluated because they are more independent and less scheme/team oriented.

Stuff like Hall looking apprehensive, playing soft and off, being out of position/missing tackles, giving up yards after catch and more are things that can be gleaned from these games despite the vanilla nature of the D.

Im curious where are you getting your views on Barry's D from? Some of what you are saying is a bit off to me. First, all NFL defenses, especially LBs, play some pattern match and for me not playing more pattern match (as opposed to spot drop) was one of the weak spots in Hasletts defense.


Second, saying a DB is playing man/press then also saying they are looking at the QBs eyes doesn't match up. Typically when playing man a DB isn't reading the QB. An old mantra in man to man is that if you see the ball leave the QBs hand you're gonna watch a receiver making a catch. A long winded way of saying that man corners should be watching their receiver. Looking at the QB usually happens in zone/off coverage (like cover 3) when the CBs are allowed to flat-foot read or read with a certain number of footsteps before reacting to the route.

Now if you're talking about the LBs they might have time to read the QB before trailing their TE/RB in man.

So like I said I'm curious as to the origin of your takes on Barry's D. A couple of good sources are Mark Bullock and Sam Golden.

Cheers, much better convo then other nonsense floating around anyhow.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 30gut

What you call basic football stuff is the exact stuff that I feel can be evaluated during preseason games. The basics can be evaluated because they are more independent and less scheme/team oriented.

Stuff like Hall looking apprehensive, playing soft and off, being out of position/missing tackles, giving up yards after catch and more are things that can be gleaned from these games despite the vanilla nature of the D.

Im curious where are you getting your views on Barry's D from? Some of what you are saying is a bit off to me. First, all NFL defenses, especially LBs, play some pattern match and for me not playing more pattern match (as opposed to spot drop) was one of the weak spots in Hasletts defense.


Second, saying a DB is playing man/press then also saying they are looking at the QBs eyes doesn't match up. Typically when playing man a DB isn't reading the QB. An old mantra in man to man is that if you see the ball leave the QBs hand you're gonna watch a receiver making a catch. A long winded way of saying that man corners should be watching their receiver. Looking at the QB usually happens in zone/off coverage (like cover 3) when the CBs are allowed to flat-foot read or read with a certain number of footsteps before reacting to the route.

Now if you're talking about the LBs they might have time to read the QB before trailing their TE/RB in man.

So like I said I'm curious as to the origin of your takes on Barry's D. A couple of good sources are Mark Bullock and Sam Golden.

Cheers, much better convo then other nonsense floating around anyhow.

My comments centered around what the DBs are doing, not the LBs, in case that wasn't clear. When in press man the CBs are of course pattern matching and not watching the QB. But the safeties are taught to keep their eyes on the QB in this defense. I won't judge them too much without an earnest attempt by the gameplan to get pressure on the QB.

But in general I don't think you learn too much from preseason. Nobody's gameplanning for anybody.

I do want to see players who have been knicked up show that they can move normally. And I do want to see the younger players esp Scherff and Moses continue to know their assignments and execute well with their feet. But without gameplans being brought into it, I don't know how meaningful the evaluation is.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

My comments centered around what the DBs are doing, not the LBs, in case that wasn't clear. When in press man the CBs are of course pattern matching and not watching the QB. But the safeties are taught to keep their eyes on the QB in this defense. I won't judge them too much without an earnest attempt by the gameplan to get pressure on the QB.

I'm confused by how you are using 'pattern match'. Pattern match is not used in man-to-man coverage its used in zone coverage. Pattern match is when zone defenders cover receivers passing through their zone as if it was man thereby 'matching' their pattern. Its the football equivalent of 'match-up' zone. So CBs in man aren't pattern matching they're playing straight man.

Safeties in any scheme are primarily zone defenders, so unless they are covering a receiver they are in some sort of zone (Cover 1 deep middle, Cover 2 deep half, Cover 4 deep 1/4 etc). So Safeties are always keying the QBs eyes (or helmet direction) in any scheme its not unique to Barry's.

But anyhow, like I said there is plenty to evaluate and learn about from preseason games, even from our DBs. After all a bulk of the decision making process during the training camp comes from coaches/staff evaluation of preseason film. So, we can agree to disagree.

Anyhow, I'm still curious about where you picked up your ideas about Barry's D from? And have you checked out Mark Bullock's stuff? Imo its the best Xs and Os out there when it comes the Skins.

Anyhow, I'm headed to the game now.

Cheers

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 30gut

But anyhow, like I said there is plenty to evaluate and learn about from preseason games, even from our DBs. After all a bulk of the decision making process during the training camp comes from coaches/staff evaluation of preseason film. So, we can agree to disagree.

Well, certainly not enough for preseason performance to be any kind of predictor for regular season success. I mean just look at the numbers. Nobody's surprised by this.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Well, certainly not enough for preseason performance to be any kind of predictor for regular season success. I mean just look at the numbers. Nobody's surprised by this.

Um okay....Although I don't see where anyone saying the above. So I'm sure no one is surprised that preseason isnt a predictor for regular season success even though no one was making the point that it was *shrugs*