Preston Smith

[Chico23231]

too me it makes zero fucking sense in one breath to say hey let's keep the weak link on the Oline and in the other breath say hey lets get rid of our best d-lineman.

Kory was awful this year and lerebius was even worse. I find it hard to believe we can't find a better replacement with an entire offseason to work with. Yes hatcher is old but he is still producing...you got a replacement there? No. Sure we have decisions to make, but we are not anywhere close to having cap issues, so I have less of a problem keeping hatcher with his cap number when he is producing at a high level than keeping Kory l around when play has steadily declined each year.

Dhall is playing strong safety and our CB situation has been riddled with injuries. Now think about this for a moment. No, shut up and think about it. A WR turned db, wil Blackmon free agent off the street....still thinking? Good. Dhall hasn't been very good at strong safety other than the scoop/score play. Highly unlikely he is back.

Goldson...wow. I guess our memories are short on the last ten years of free safety play. Unfuckingbelievable. You make every effort to bring him back next year.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Goldson...wow. I guess our memories are short on the last ten years of free safety play. Unfuckingbelievable. You make every effort to bring him back next year.

kory hasn't played since week 7, he's better than guys that are starting for us right now, so, yeah, you're right, lets just keep the worse players that replaced him instead.

goldson is already under contract for 2016, but for $8m base, which i assume they'll try to reduce with a new deal. you don't actually have to make any effort to get him back.

hatcher had 20 tackles and 2 sacks this year. he's played well, but for 8$m a year you don't possibly think we could do better than that? really?

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by That Guy

kory hasn't played since week 7, he's better than guys that are starting for us right now, so, yeah, you're right, lets just keep the worse players that replaced him instead.

goldson is already under contract for 2016, but for $8m base, which i assume they'll try to reduce with a new deal. you don't actually have to make any effort to get him back.

hatcher had 20 tackles and 2 sacks this year. he's played well, but for 8$m a year you don't possibly think we could do better than that? really?

Hatcher and goldson will renegotiate with us IF we decide we want them too. It's no secret, they will not get big money on the open market so it's in their best interest to take 4-5 million next year. They are happy here, they play and have had tremendous impacts along our defense. In the meantime, we can draft their replacement this year or the following.

Kory isn't special...just a guy with little impact, easily replaced. Again, look at the draft prospects and pending free agents, there is actually a lot of depth at center

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

too me it makes zero fucking sense in one breath to say hey let's keep the weak link on the Oline and in the other breath say hey lets get rid of our best d-lineman.

Setting aside the Kory bashing, which I don't agree with you on at all, I have to challenge this asinine shit. Hatcher was nowhere near our best lineman, Chris Baker was.

Sacks: Hatcher 2, Baker 6
Tackles: Hatcher 20, Baker 53
Forced Fumbles: Hatcher 1, Baker 3

Ricky Jean had basically the same production as Hatcher in half the snaps. RJF had 26 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1 forced fumble.

I understand stats are an incomplete measure of D-line play. But Baker whips Hatcher on the eye test any day of the week. And I would say Knighton was generally more impactful than Hatcher. You didn't see Hatcher getting double teamed often, you saw Knighton draw it all the time.

I would say Hatcher was our least valuable starting defensive lineman this year. I think Hatcher on the eye test was better than RJF but it's not that cut and dry.

He's in severe decline. Three years ago with Dallas he had 11 sacks. Down to 6 last year. And 2 this year, despite playing in a one-gap that should have suited him much better.

Now let's talk about the cap space issue. Hatcher takes up $8.7M next year, cutting him would save $4.25M. Meanwhile Kory takes up only $4.0M, and cutting him saves us $3.0M. Cutting Hatcher gives you space to sign a starting caliber player, cutting Kory gives you the space to sign an average starting center in the NFL... like Kory Lichtensteiger.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Setting aside the Kory bashing, which I don't agree with you on at all, I have to challenge this asinine shit. Hatcher was nowhere near our best lineman, Chris Baker was.

Sacks: Hatcher 2, Baker 6
Tackles: Hatcher 20, Baker 53
Forced Fumbles: Hatcher 1, Baker 3

Ricky Jean had basically the same production as Hatcher in half the snaps. RJF had 26 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1 forced fumble.

I understand stats are an incomplete measure of D-line play. But Baker whips Hatcher on the eye test any day of the week. And I would say Knighton was generally more impactful than Hatcher. You didn't see Hatcher getting double teamed often, you saw Knighton draw it all the time.

I would say Hatcher was our least valuable starting defensive lineman this year. I think Hatcher on the eye test was better than RJF but it's not that cut and dry.

He's in severe decline. Three years ago with Dallas he had 11 sacks. Down to 6 last year. And 2 this year, despite playing in a one-gap that should have suited him much better.

Now, since you seem to have trouble counting, let's talk about the cap space issue. Hatcher takes up $8.7M next year, cutting him would save $4.5M. Meanwhile Kory takes up only $4.0M, and cutting him only saves us $1.0M. Cutting Hatcher gives you space to sign a starting caliber player, cutting Kory gives you the space to sign somebody like Adam Hayward, a special teams stalwart but not much else.

So do you know what you're talking about, like at all?

And here's Schneed after writing this post:

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Setting aside the Kory bashing, which I don't agree with you on at all, I have to challenge this asinine shit. Hatcher was nowhere near our best lineman, Chris Baker was.

Sacks: Hatcher 2, Baker 6
Tackles: Hatcher 20, Baker 53
Forced Fumbles: Hatcher 1, Baker 3

Ricky Jean had basically the same production as Hatcher in half the snaps. RJF had 26 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1 forced fumble.

I understand stats are an incomplete measure of D-line play. But Baker whips Hatcher on the eye test any day of the week. And I would say Knighton was generally more impactful than Hatcher. You didn't see Hatcher getting double teamed often, you saw Knighton draw it all the time.

I would say Hatcher was our least valuable starting defensive lineman this year. I think Hatcher on the eye test was better than RJF but it's not that cut and dry.

He's in severe decline. Three years ago with Dallas he had 11 sacks. Down to 6 last year. And 2 this year, despite playing in a one-gap that should have suited him much better.

Now let's talk about the cap space issue. Hatcher takes up $8.7M next year, cutting him would save $4.25M. Meanwhile Kory takes up only $4.0M, and cutting him saves us $3.0M. Cutting Hatcher gives you space to sign a starting caliber player, cutting Kory gives you the space to sign an average starting center in the NFL... like Kory Lichtensteiger.

You know I went back and looked at recent grades from the website I use and Chris Baker is our highest rated D-lineman. Hatcher and Pot Roast actually grade at 75 and 74.6. Baker at 83.2 which is 21st overall in the league. But the ironic thing you kinda hounded on pass rush, Hatcher graded slightly higher than Baker, but Baker set the edge and kills it in the running game. All our D-lineman actually grade decent. So in regards to the one sentence of my argument of who the actual best Dlineman is, your right, Chris Baker. Baker does pass the eye test...in fact all our D-Line pass the eye test. And bring up the Dallas stats...in a different role, in a different system...really.

But you and I both know that really wasn't what my post was about.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

You know I went back and looked at recent grades from the website I use and Chris Baker is our highest rated D-lineman. Hatcher and Pot Roast actually grade at 75 and 74.6. Baker at 83.2 which is 21st overall in the league. But the ironic thing you kinda hounded on pass rush, Hatcher graded slightly higher than Baker, but Baker set the edge and kills it in the running game. All our D-lineman actually grade decent. So in regards to the one sentence of my argument of who the actual best Dlineman is, your right, Chris Baker. Baker does pass the eye test...in fact all our D-Line pass the eye test. And bring up the Dallas stats...in a different role, in a different system...really.

But you and I both know that really wasn't what my post was about.

... in a different time

Dude's too old and he has balky knees. If we don't need the cap space then I'm fine with keeping him, depth is depth. But he's only declining from here.

[Evilgrin]

Should be a very interesting offseason, I can hold off for a few more weeks though.

Congrats to Preston Smith for being the best rookie pass rusher, LOL. Didn't look that way in the beginning.

[NoCalHail]

The issue with Hatcher is he shouldn't be an every down DE anymore. If we could find someone else to take most the snaps, and then insert Hatcher on obvious passing downs, I think his production could increase because he'd be saving what's left in the tanks merely to go after the QB.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by NoCalHail

The issue with Hatcher is he shouldn't be an every down DE anymore. If we could find someone else to take most the snaps, and then insert Hatcher on obvious passing downs, I think his production could increase because he'd be saving what's left in the tanks merely to go after the QB.

Fine plan. But you'd never pay $8.7M in cap space for that, not when you could cut him to gain $4.5M. If this was my plan as McCloughan and Gruden, I would insist on a paycut or peace out.

[Irrefutable]

Cutting Kory L saves $3 million. He can be replaced by a free agent center for about the same amount.

Cutting Hatcher saves $4 million. He can be replaced with a first round pick from Alabama for about $2 million.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Irrefutable

Cutting Kory L saves $3 million. He can be replaced by a free agent center for about the same amount.

Cutting Hatcher saves $4 million. He can be replaced with a first round pick from Alabama for about $2 million.

You're right, apparently I can't count. I just went back and reread the schedule and realized I had pulled from the wrong column. Cutting Hatcher saves exactly $4.25M next year, cutting Kory would save $2.95M.

That could maybe make you think about doing something with Kory but his performance was solid this year, nothing that would make me go OH MY GOD WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT $3M IN SPACE.

$3M won't buy you a world beater at center. It will buy you an average one. Like Kory.

[Ruhskins]

I know some of people were not happy when we passed on Leonard Williams, but I found it interesting in comparing Williams' stats with Preston Smith:

L. Williams: 63 tkls (29 solo), 3 sacks
P. Smith: 35 tkls (24 solo), 8 sacks, 3 FF, 1 FR

They are different position, but I'm giving kudos here to SM for getting similar (or better IMO) defensive production in the later rounds.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I know some of people were not happy when we passed on Leonard Williams, but I found it interesting in comparing Williams' stats with Preston Smith:

L. Williams: 63 tkls (29 solo), 3 sacks
P. Smith: 35 tkls (24 solo), 8 sacks, 3 FF, 1 FR

They are different position, but I'm giving kudos here to SM for getting similar (or better IMO) defensive production in the later rounds.

williams still did well, so it's not like taking him would have been the wrong move either.

that said, SM has proved that he actually knows what he's doing, so whereas before when when disagreed with a move we assumed vinny was being an idiot, now we have to strongly consider that maybe we're the ones that are wrong.

competent management op. its nice being in week 17 and not discussing who our next HC is going to be or how we need to fix our trainwreck of a team.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by That Guy

williams still did well, so it's not like taking him would have been the wrong move either.

that said, SM has proved that he actually knows what he's doing, so whereas before when when disagreed with a move we assumed vinny was being an idiot, now we have to strongly consider that maybe we're the ones that are wrong.

competent management op. its nice being in week 17 and not discussing who our next HC is going to be or how we need to fix our trainwreck of a team.

It's.....staggering to look at the talent that he is responsible for on this team....That can Actually play!
Not to mention the unemployed...undrafted dudes that he brought in as a result of injury needs. That are GOOD!!
Love this guy