Democratic debates

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

If you want to legalize weed, or not legalize weed, I don't really care. If you want to smoke weed knock yourself out. But just get yourself educated, the notion that it's not harmful is nonsense perpetuated by those who simply enjoy it:



Weed users have poorer verbal memory in middle age - CNN.com

It's certainly not my top priority but it's definitely something I think should be on the long term presidential agenda. As we all know the war on drugs has been an absolute failure. All the money we've wasted trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs into the country (the fact that we trump about collecting literal tons of drugs coming in yet it only represents 10% of the total amount is ridiculous) when we could be properly taxing it and using that revenue for things that help, like lowering the cost of education/healthcare.

I'm not saying make it totally legal on the state level, because that is up to the states. I'm just saying stop making it illegal on the federal level, which will clear the way for states to make it legal if they want to. And while your link makes a credible point, I will point to the fact that I have grown up with a lot of people that use it (and some of these guys are smart, dedicated professionals who are good at what they do and only use in their free time) while at the same time acknowledging that I know people my age who grow their own, live with their parents, and just get by playing video games and getting high all day. It's different for everyone. There are plenty of people who use it but still are productive members of society.

Not to mention the medical benefits and the fact that there are tons of pro athletes who use it rather than get addicted to pills. As dangerous as you might think it is, I would say alcohol is just is, if not more dangerous than it. Either way, I won't continue this debate. It was one of things I had been thinking about when I wrote that post, but I also agree there are bigger issues at hand, like Daesh, etc. If you want to believe that I think legalizing weed should be a top priority, so be it. I've said my piece though, and I think it's a no brainer with everyone freaking out about how we're going to pay for all these new ideas to fix our country.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mooby

It's certainly not my top priority but it's definitely something I think should be on the long term presidential agenda. As we all know the war on drugs has been an absolute failure. All the money we've wasted trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs into the country (the fact that we trump about collecting literal tons of drugs coming in yet it only represents 10% of the total amount is ridiculous) when we could be properly taxing it and using that revenue for things that help, like lowering the cost of education/healthcare.

I'm not saying make it totally legal on the state level, because that is up to the states. I'm just saying stop making it illegal on the federal level, which will clear the way for states to make it legal if they want to. And while your link makes a credible point, I will point to the fact that I have grown up with a lot of people that use it (and some of these guys are smart, dedicated professionals who are good at what they do and only use in their free time) while at the same time acknowledging that I know people my age who grow their own, live with their parents, and just get by playing video games and getting high all day. It's different for everyone. There are plenty of people who use it but still are productive members of society.

Not to mention the medical benefits and the fact that there are tons of pro athletes who use it rather than get addicted to pills. As dangerous as you might think it is, I would say alcohol is just is, if not more dangerous than it. Either way, I won't continue this debate. It was one of things I had been thinking about when I wrote that post, but I also agree there are bigger issues at hand, like Daesh, etc. If you want to believe that I think legalizing weed should be a top priority, so be it. I've said my piece though.

Anecdotal evidence (I know a few guys who...) does not hold up well against scientific studies where they track progress against a baseline for 3500 people. Besides, the point isn't whether your friends are productive members of society, the point is how much more productive can they be? If you start with an IQ of 140 and it drops to 130 because of weed, you're still in good shape. But I still wouldn't do it personally. The power of the brain is too significant.

But that should be a value judgment for each person to make on his own.

As for medical benefits, that should be done only under the direction of a physician. Nobody should be trying to decide whether it provides medical benefit for them without the guidance and prescription from a physician. So unless you're a doctor whose job it is to balance the pros and cons of each medicinal option, I'm uninterested in that argument. It can only be made by medical professionals.

And on drug cartels, legalizing weed will have hardly any impact on them. They make most of their money from cocaine, heroin and similar narcotics, not weed. Taking away that business from them would be like telling McDonald's they can't sell the Filet o Fish and McRib anymore. There would be some disappointment but they'd survive just fine on their Big Macs and Egg McMuffins.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Anecdotal evidence (I know a few guys who...) does not hold up well against scientific studies where they track progress against a baseline for 3500 people. Besides, the point isn't whether your friends are productive members of society, the point is how much more productive can they be? If you start with an IQ of 140 and it drops to 130 because of weed, you're still in good shape. But I still wouldn't do it personally. The power of the brain is too significant.

But that should be a value judgment for each person to make on his own.

As for medical benefits, that should be done only under the direction of a physician. Nobody should be trying to decide whether it provides medical benefit for them without the guidance and prescription from a physician. So unless you're a doctor whose job it is to balance the pros and cons of each medicinal option, I'm uninterested in that argument. It can only be made by medical professionals.

And on drug cartels, legalizing weed will have hardly any impact on them. They make most of their money from cocaine, heroin and similar narcotics, not weed. Taking away that business from them would be like telling McDonald's they can't sell the Filet o Fish and McRib anymore. There would be some disappointment but they'd survive just fine on their Big Macs and Egg McMuffins.

I agree that anecdotal evidence shouldn't hold up against scientific evidence, but my point is that amongst the younger members of society today, its' use is widespread enough that its' harmfulness has been totally destigmatized. I won't argue about its' longterm degenerative effects, but I would say it's probably on par with tobacco or to a lesser degree alcohol, both of which will continue to be legal even as studies come out showing how unhealthy they are.

I also agree on the medical benefits, obviously those that truly need it should consult with a doctor first. But from cancer patients using it to epileptics that control their seizures with it, I feel like it's obvious there are medical benefits to it.

As for the cartels, no doubt there are far worse drugs that make plenty of money for them. But weed remains one of the most popular drugs out there and probably still makes up a decent chunk of their business percentage wise. I'd argue heroin use is on the rise thanks to the prescription drug abuse, but weed is probably the Big Mac of the cartels. It might not be their money maker compared to other drugs but it still remains one of the most popular products on the market (though with states like Colorado/Washington/I think Alaska as well leading the way the process of legalization is starting to come around, which might be making a slight dip in cartel pockets.)

Anyways, nice debating with you. I realize it's mostly for naught but I appreciate the civility.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Anecdotal evidence (I know a few guys who...) does not hold up well against scientific studies where they track progress against a baseline for 3500 people. Besides, the point isn't whether your friends are productive members of society, the point is how much more productive can they be? If you start with an IQ of 140 and it drops to 130 because of weed, you're still in good shape. But I still wouldn't do it personally. The power of the brain is too significant.

But that should be a value judgment for each person to make on his own.

As for medical benefits, that should be done only under the direction of a physician. Nobody should be trying to decide whether it provides medical benefit for them without the guidance and prescription from a physician. So unless you're a doctor whose job it is to balance the pros and cons of each medicinal option, I'm uninterested in that argument. It can only be made by medical professionals.

And on drug cartels, legalizing weed will have hardly any impact on them. They make most of their money from cocaine, heroin and similar narcotics, not weed. Taking away that business from them would be like telling McDonald's they can't sell the Filet o Fish and McRib anymore. There would be some disappointment but they'd survive just fine on their Big Macs and Egg McMuffins.

Not true, Marijuana is their biggest cash crop and money maker do to the amount of demand based the enormous amount of users compared to the heroin, meth and cocaine users. Cocaine consumption is way, way down. Regardless, the cartels aren't hurt because they have a ton of business verticles these days...drugs, extortion, human traffic, etc.

Remember Mooby, you want the weed from Canada, not mexico.

lil bit of stats...1 million kilos of weed seized at the border...they usually get 10% of being imported...so looking at 10 million kilos of weed yearly from the southwest border.

Heroin: 1,855 kilos seized...10%...18,555 being imported yearly.

http://www.dea.gov/resource-center/D...ry%20final.pdf

guess whats the biggest drug threat to our country? the legal prescription business per the DEA. Shocker? We let these big Pharm hook up and kill more folks than illegal drugs.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Not true, Marijuana is their biggest cash crop and money maker do to the amount of demand based the enormous amount of users compared to the heroin, meth and cocaine users. Cocaine consumption is way, way down. Regardless, the cartels aren't hurt because they have a ton of business verticles these days...drugs, extortion, human traffic, etc. .

I know we're basically in agreement, the cartels won't be affected by whatever the US does with weed. But do you have any facts to back up your assessment that marijuana is the biggest cash crop?? Remember, a Kilo of heroin and a kilo of weed have very different street values.

Weed has higher demand but you're not talking about the same price, not even remotely.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I know we're basically in agreement, the cartels won't be affected by whatever the US does with weed. But do you have any facts to back up your assessment that marijuana is the biggest cash crop?? Remember, a Kilo of heroin and a kilo of weed have very different street values.

Weed has higher demand but you're not talking about the same price, not even remotely.

yeah...there is a ton of different data out there, but hectares of tweed grown is mexico is down. Poppy is way up over the last 5 years. in comparison of cartel price based on seizure figures, if you give the cartel max price of 5,000 for kilo of heroin and the farmer wholesale price (the lowest possible for cartel) of $25 for marijuana still totals due to volume is much higher for marijuana. cheap marijuana not going away, but the cartel marketshare certainly dented due to legalization in the US.

These figures don't take into consideration of cartels marijuana grows in the US, this has become preferable. You could probably add an additional 10-15% in total kilo.

cash crops hay, sugar still higher than marijuana at this point.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

yeah...there is a ton of different data out there, but hectares of tweed grown is mexico is down. Poppy is way up over the last 5 years. in comparison of cartel price based on seizure figures, if you give the cartel max price of 5,000 for kilo of heroin and the farmer wholesale price (the lowest possible for cartel) of $25 for marijuana still totals due to volume is much higher for marijuana. cheap marijuana not going away, but the cartel marketshare certainly dented due to legalization in the US.

These figures don't take into consideration of cartels marijuana grows in the US, this has become preferable. You could probably add an additional 10-15% in total kilo.

cash crops hay, sugar still higher than marijuana at this point.

Can I please see some of that data? Or I'm calling bullshit.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Can I please see some of that data? Or I'm calling bullshit.

dude seriously? First take the link from the "Drug threat assessment" report from the DEA I first posted which will give you the volume.

Following heroin's path from Mexico to the Midwest | The Washington Post

heroin resurgent report from the post...cartel price of 5K which actually seems a little high.

Then $25 a kilo farmer price!!!!...I mean, Im giving on the absolute bottom price for a farmer in the mexico. You can probable add 50%(again minimum) on top of that for the cartel because he is the one-stop, wholesale purchaser.