The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0

[WillH]

https://scout.com/nfl/denver-broncos...cial-113893682

Interesting, but not especially novel. If Scott thought he was special they would have accepted his counter offer after 2015. As much as some wanted to believe that Scott was fighting with the FO to try to keep Cousins here, that he was the visionary that knew the year to year wouldn't work, based on what Cousins and McCloughan have said this off season, that doesn't add up.

It sounds more like Kirk overvalued himself after a strong second half of a season, Scott and the rest of the FO said prove it while we build a winning team around you, and then he outplayed statistically the value of his talent in their eyes, and ultimately it doesn't sound like Scott would pay him now, which isn't surprising given his philosophy on QBs.

If McCloughan sees the same in Cousins that the FO does, does that make losing him any more palatable to you?

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[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by WillH

https://scout.com/nfl/denver-broncos...cial-113893682

Interesting, but not especially novel. If Scott thought he was special they would have accepted his counter offer after 2015. As much as some wanted to believe that Scott was fighting with the FO to try to keep Cousins here, that he was the visionary that knew the year to year wouldn't work, based on what Cousins and McCloughan have said this off season, that doesn't add up.

It sounds more like Kirk overvalued himself after a strong second half of a season, Scott and the rest of the FO said prove it while we build a winning team around you, and then he outplayed statistically the value of his talent in their eyes, and ultimately it doesn't sound like Scott would pay him now, which isn't surprising given his philosophy on QBs.

If McCloughan sees the same in Cousins that the FO does, does that make losing him any more palatable to you?

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Here's what McCloughan is reported to have actually said:

‘We Kind Of Messed Up’ On Kirk Cousins Contract

"So, personally, I'd do a long-term deal. It's best for the organization financially, and you're going to have to guarantee a lot up front and all of that, but, still, you've got somebody locked in who is in his prime, and now you're not scrambling.

[WillH]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Here's what McCloughan is reported to have actually said:

‘We Kind Of Messed Up’ On Kirk Cousins Contract

"So, personally, I'd do a long-term deal. It's best for the organization financially, and you're going to have to guarantee a lot up front and all of that, but, still, you've got somebody locked in who is in his prime, and now you're not scrambling.

Those look like different interviews from earlier, but I get your point. He has said that he would try to sign him long-term, and thinks they should have sooner.

He still didn't do it though, when he had the chance. There is a lot of criticism being thrown around about not signing him sooner, and in retrospect it's a no brainer, but it just wasn't at the time and our savior that we all had placed our faith in (in Scott we trust), was part of that evaluation. And, as Scott said he would in Oct. (Second article you posted), the FO did try to sign him long term last off-season, but Cousins declined to counter, despite an offer that his agent said was clearly a good starting point for negotiations.That at least makes me feel less shitty about missing the boat on him. It wasn't organizational ignorance or incompetence, it was a sound decision that turned out to be the wrong move.

The only question that I think remains in terms of the organization's role in this is why Cousins doesn't have a peace here. Is he just bitter that he wasn't offered more sooner? Is it his relationship with Gruden? Is he not patient with the team building? Is there other dysfunction that we haven't heard about that has turned him off? Is it just about maximizing his earnings?

I think clearly the organization has played a role in whatever way in Cousins not wanting to be here, but he plays a big role in that as well. Without knowing the details though it's impossible to make a judgement about who's most at fault.

I will say this though, at this point, to me, Cousins is beginning to look more at fault than he did a month or two ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on his comments Cousins' main complaints seem to be:

1. The Redskins told me they needed more time to evaluate me after one good season of starting before signing a big long-term deal.

2. My favorite coach left, and he always propped me up. I believed in him more than anyone else here.

3. I put up good numbers, the losses aren't all my fault, but the team is judging me off of my record.

4. I haven't had a chance to shop around and I think I deserve that.

After he let everyone know he wasn't being made to feel unwelcome, was offered a legitimate starting offer, and now knowing that Scott was part of the decision not to sign him earlier, it's just hard to blame the FO, and Cousins perspective comes off as self centered. I mean, he has every right to feel the way he does and he's been an consumate professional about it, but where's the buy in and trust on his end, and why does he not understand that as an NFL QB he will always be asked to prove it?

Brady to this day has not lost the drive to prove himself and he's bought in to the people that gave him a shot, and he has found a balance in his negotiations between winning and being well compensated by not expecting his team to be limited by paying him a ridiculous percentage of the cap despite all of his success.

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[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by WillH

Those look like different interviews from earlier, but I get your point. He has said that he would try to sign him long-term, and thinks they should have sooner.

He still didn't do it though, when he had the chance. There is a lot of criticism being thrown around about not signing him sooner, and in retrospect it's a no brainer, but it just wasn't at the time and our savior that we all had placed our faith in (in Scott we trust), was part of that evaluation. And, as Scott said he would in Oct. (Second article you posted), the FO did try to sign him long term last off-season, but Cousins declined to counter, despite an offer that his agent said was clearly a good starting point for negotiations.That at least makes me feel less shitty about missing the boat on him. It wasn't organizational ignorance or incompetence, it was a sound decision that turned out to be the wrong move.

The only question that I think remains in terms of the organization's role in this is why Cousins doesn't have a peace here. Is he just bitter that he wasn't offered more sooner? Is it his relationship with Gruden? Is he not patient with the team building? Is there other dysfunction that we haven't heard about that has turned him off? Is it just about maximizing his earnings?

I think clearly the organization has played a role in whatever way in Cousins not wanting to be here, but he plays a big role in that as well. Without knowing the details though it's impossible to make a judgement about who's most at fault.

I will say this though, at this point, to me, Cousins is beginning to look more at fault than he did a month or two ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on his comments Cousins' main complaints seem to be:

1. The Redskins told me they needed more time to evaluate me after one good season of starting before signing a big long-term deal.

2. My favorite coach left, and he always propped me up. I believed in him more than anyone else here.

3. I put up good numbers, the losses aren't all my fault, but the team is judging me off of my record.

4. I haven't had a chance to shop around and I think I deserve that.

After he let everyone know he wasn't being made to feel unwelcome, was offered a legitimate starting offer, and now knowing that Scott was part of the decision not to sign him earlier, it's just hard to blame the FO, and Cousins perspective comes off as self centered. I mean, he has every right to feel the way he does and he's been an consumate professional about it, but where's the buy in and trust on his end, and why does he not understand that as an NFL QB he will always be asked to prove it?

Brady to this day has not lost the drive to prove himself and he's bought in to the people that gave him a shot, and he has found a balance in his negotiations between winning and being well compensated by not expecting his team to be limited by paying him a ridiculous percentage of the cap despite all of his success.

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Well, yeah different interviews earlier. But look at even the interview posted elsewhere, where McCloughan says that Kirk is "not special", and then goes on to say this about Kirk (Link embedded)


“He’s talented,” McCloughan said. “Talent is good at quarterback in the NFL. He’s won games. I know his record overall isn’t over .500. I know he hasn’t won a playoff game. But he’s competitive. He works his tail off. He’s so methodical. Every day he has planned out. He’s always in the building, he’s always watching tape, he’s always talking to coaches, he [was] talking to me. From the standpoint of the tangibles, they’re excellent. You just need to have some talent around him because you don’t want him to be throwing the ball 35-40 times to win the game. You want to have a running game, and have a good defense, good teams. And then let him do what he does.”

Two areas of Cousins’ game that don’t get talked about enough are his mobility and an ability to overcome adversity. McCloughan landed on both those points on Thursday.

“The thing about him that’s unique, and you don’t see it too often, he’s a pretty good athlete with his legs,” McCloughan said. “He can make plays moving around the pocket and running for first downs. He’s got a strong enough arm, there’s no doubt about it. He’s been through adversity. He got drafted the same year that Robert Griffin got drafted. And Robert was the guy and of course he deserved it. He was Offensive Rookie of the Year and Kirk just had to sit back and just wait and wait and wait.

“He wants to play. He’s highly, highly competitive. He comes across as a real nice guy, like Alex Smith did in interviews — and they are. But they’re both highly competitive and they want to win. But they want that stability too. They want to know they’re in some spot where it’s not just a one-year deal, one-year deal, one-year deal. He wants a long-term deal.”

It should be noted that it is somewhat bizarre that McCloughan would so vociferously complement Cousins, after saying that the signal-caller isn't special. Most of the verbiage the former GM used to complement Cousins paints the picture of a 'special' QB.

So according to McCloughan, not special, but talented and works his tail off. And with all the other compliments McC threw Kirks way, like the article author I'm wondering if Kirk isn't special, would you call him almost special or not-quite-special? Still a very good QB according to McC, IMO.

The first year his contract came up, the Skins made a business decision not committing to Kirk. In hindsight it was a bad decision in every way, morale wise and financially. Can you blame Kirk and his agent making business decisions since then that have worked out fantastically for Kirk? (and agent of course LOL). Forget any vitriol, you can look at this situation as the way that the Redskins front office wanted to play it, or just business as usual in the NFL where the two sides can't agree for whatever reason, or other ways without blaming Kirk. (I hope we agree that given Snyder and Allens history of bungling, they don't deserve the benefit of a doubt now.)

On your points, I feel like you are assigning hard feelings to Kirk that may not exist.

Originally Posted by WillH

1. The Redskins told me they needed more time to evaluate me after one good season of starting before signing a big long-term deal.
2. My favorite coach left, and he always propped me up. I believed in him more than anyone else here.
3. I put up good numbers, the losses aren't all my fault, but the team is judging me off of my record.
4. I haven't had a chance to shop around and I think I deserve that.

1. Yeah that's the business decision the Skins made. IMO they told Kirk "prove it", and he did. Haven't heard of any bitterness or hard feelings on Kirks part, have you?

2. Dunno about favorite, but has there been any friction between Gruden and Cousins, again I haven't heard of any.

3. TFB, Tom Freakin Brady, would only do so much on this team, well short of Superbowls, IMHO. I understand QBs are judged partly on team success, but I think Kirks resume outweighs this teams record by a long shot. Look how well he did here when we had Garcon and Jackson.

4. Perfectly justified and reasonable for a player to do so, especially after they have been tagged twice, regardless of their personal relationship to the team.

[Meks]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Well, yeah different interviews earlier. But look at even the interview posted elsewhere, where McCloughan says that Kirk is "not special", and then goes on to say this about Kirk (Link embedded)


“He’s talented,” McCloughan said. “Talent is good at quarterback in the NFL. He’s won games. I know his record overall isn’t over .500. I know he hasn’t won a playoff game. But he’s competitive. He works his tail off. He’s so methodical. Every day he has planned out. He’s always in the building, he’s always watching tape, he’s always talking to coaches, he [was] talking to me. From the standpoint of the tangibles, they’re excellent. You just need to have some talent around him because you don’t want him to be throwing the ball 35-40 times to win the game. You want to have a running game, and have a good defense, good teams. And then let him do what he does.”

Two areas of Cousins’ game that don’t get talked about enough are his mobility and an ability to overcome adversity. McCloughan landed on both those points on Thursday.

“The thing about him that’s unique, and you don’t see it too often, he’s a pretty good athlete with his legs,” McCloughan said. “He can make plays moving around the pocket and running for first downs. He’s got a strong enough arm, there’s no doubt about it. He’s been through adversity. He got drafted the same year that Robert Griffin got drafted. And Robert was the guy and of course he deserved it. He was Offensive Rookie of the Year and Kirk just had to sit back and just wait and wait and wait.

“He wants to play. He’s highly, highly competitive. He comes across as a real nice guy, like Alex Smith did in interviews — and they are. But they’re both highly competitive and they want to win. But they want that stability too. They want to know they’re in some spot where it’s not just a one-year deal, one-year deal, one-year deal. He wants a long-term deal.”

It should be noted that it is somewhat bizarre that McCloughan would so vociferously complement Cousins, after saying that the signal-caller isn't special. Most of the verbiage the former GM used to complement Cousins paints the picture of a 'special' QB.

So according to McCloughan, not special, but talented and works his tail off. And with all the other compliments McC threw Kirks way, like the article author I'm wondering if Kirk isn't special, would you call him almost special or not-quite-special? Still a very good QB according to McC, IMO.

The first year his contract came up, the Skins made a business decision not committing to Kirk. In hindsight it was a bad decision in every way, morale wise and financially. Can you blame Kirk and his agent making business decisions since then that have worked out fantastically for Kirk? (and agent of course LOL). Forget any vitriol, you can look at this situation as the way that the Redskins front office wanted to play it, or just business as usual in the NFL where the two sides can't agree for whatever reason, or other ways without blaming Kirk. (I hope we agree that given Snyder and Allens history of bungling, they don't deserve the benefit of a doubt now.)

On your points, I feel like you are assigning hard feelings to Kirk that may not exist.



1. Yeah that's the business decision the Skins made. IMO they told Kirk "prove it", and he did. Haven't heard of any bitterness or hard feelings on Kirks part, have you?

2. Dunno about favorite, but has there been any friction between Gruden and Cousins, again I haven't heard of any.

3. TFB, Tom Freakin Brady, would only do so much on this team, well short of Superbowls, IMHO. I understand QBs are judged partly on team success, but I think Kirks resume outweighs this teams record by a long shot. Look how well he did here when we had Garcon and Jackson.

4. Perfectly justified and reasonable for a player to do so, especially after they have been tagged twice, regardless of their personal relationship to the team.

This would have more to do with the coach than the player in this situation.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Meks

This would have more to do with the coach than the player in this situation.

I don't know what you mean.

[WillH]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

I don't know what you mean.

I think he's saying what I just said too, namely, the Offense this year probably reflects better on Gruden than Cousins when you think about it. There have been a number of good WRs that have been made to look like straight ballers by an elite QB, This was not the case this year with Cousins. Your point would be more effective if say Ryan Grant looked like Garcon. Instead, it would seem, on the surface at least, that good game planning and scheming to get players open from every skill position had more to do with it than Cousins' skill.

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[WillH]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Well, yeah different interviews earlier. But look at even the interview posted elsewhere, where McCloughan says that Kirk is "not special", and then goes on to say this about Kirk (Link embedded)


“He’s talented,” McCloughan said. “Talent is good at quarterback in the NFL. He’s won games. I know his record overall isn’t over .500. I know he hasn’t won a playoff game. But he’s competitive. He works his tail off. He’s so methodical. Every day he has planned out. He’s always in the building, he’s always watching tape, he’s always talking to coaches, he [was] talking to me. From the standpoint of the tangibles, they’re excellent. You just need to have some talent around him because you don’t want him to be throwing the ball 35-40 times to win the game. You want to have a running game, and have a good defense, good teams. And then let him do what he does.”

Two areas of Cousins’ game that don’t get talked about enough are his mobility and an ability to overcome adversity. McCloughan landed on both those points on Thursday.

“The thing about him that’s unique, and you don’t see it too often, he’s a pretty good athlete with his legs,” McCloughan said. “He can make plays moving around the pocket and running for first downs. He’s got a strong enough arm, there’s no doubt about it. He’s been through adversity. He got drafted the same year that Robert Griffin got drafted. And Robert was the guy and of course he deserved it. He was Offensive Rookie of the Year and Kirk just had to sit back and just wait and wait and wait.

“He wants to play. He’s highly, highly competitive. He comes across as a real nice guy, like Alex Smith did in interviews — and they are. But they’re both highly competitive and they want to win. But they want that stability too. They want to know they’re in some spot where it’s not just a one-year deal, one-year deal, one-year deal. He wants a long-term deal.”

It should be noted that it is somewhat bizarre that McCloughan would so vociferously complement Cousins, after saying that the signal-caller isn't special. Most of the verbiage the former GM used to complement Cousins paints the picture of a 'special' QB.

So according to McCloughan, not special, but talented and works his tail off. And with all the other compliments McC threw Kirks way, like the article author I'm wondering if Kirk isn't special, would you call him almost special or not-quite-special? Still a very good QB according to McC, IMO.

The first year his contract came up, the Skins made a business decision not committing to Kirk. In hindsight it was a bad decision in every way, morale wise and financially. Can you blame Kirk and his agent making business decisions since then that have worked out fantastically for Kirk? (and agent of course LOL). Forget any vitriol, you can look at this situation as the way that the Redskins front office wanted to play it, or just business as usual in the NFL where the two sides can't agree for whatever reason, or other ways without blaming Kirk. (I hope we agree that given Snyder and Allens history of bungling, they don't deserve the benefit of a doubt now.)

On your points, I feel like you are assigning hard feelings to Kirk that may not exist.



1. Yeah that's the business decision the Skins made. IMO they told Kirk "prove it", and he did. Haven't heard of any bitterness or hard feelings on Kirks part, have you?

2. Dunno about favorite, but has there been any friction between Gruden and Cousins, again I haven't heard of any.

3. TFB, Tom Freakin Brady, would only do so much on this team, well short of Superbowls, IMHO. I understand QBs are judged partly on team success, but I think Kirks resume outweighs this teams record by a long shot. Look how well he did here when we had Garcon and Jackson.

4. Perfectly justified and reasonable for a player to do so, especially after they have been tagged twice, regardless of their personal relationship to the team.

1. Yeah, I think I detected a little bitterness when he said something to the effect of, they said they needed time to evaluate the first year, now I need to evaluate.

2. He got a subtle dog in at Gruden that it was McVays offense and he needed to see how Gruden would do without him. He had to know how chippy Gruden got last off-season when the media was creating that story line.

3. I disagree. Tom Brady, dislike him as I do, is GOAT. You can argue against it, but the evidence is stacked against you. Also, really there's more evidence that Gruden is the more influential of the two to offensive success, he got a lot out of Dalton. Cousins hasn't had the chance to prove his numbers aren't a product of the system. I also think this year showed more about Gruden ability to scheme than Kirk playing above the talent level of the team, it's not like he made any of his receivers look like all stars this year.

4. Agreed. Totally, but as a Skins fan, it makes him look like a douche to me.

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[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by WillH

1. Yeah, I think I detected a little bitterness when he said something to the effect of, they said they needed time to evaluate the first year, now I need to evaluate.

2. He got a subtle dog in at Gruden that it was McVays offense and he needed to see how Gruden would do without him. He had to know how chippy Gruden got last off-season when the media was creating that story line.

3. I disagree. Tom Brady, dislike him as I do, is GOAT. You can argue against it, but the evidence is stacked against you. Also, really there's more evidence that Gruden is the more influential of the two to offensive success, he got a lot out of Dalton. Cousins hasn't had the chance to prove his numbers aren't a product of the system. I also think this year showed more about Gruden ability to scheme than Kirk playing above the talent level of the team, it's not like he made any of his receivers look like all stars this year.

4. Agreed. Totally, but as a Skins fan, it makes him look like a douche to me.

I'd like to agree to disagree on 1, 2, and 4.

3. I'm not arguing TFB isn't the GOAT, I'm saying despite the QB being the most important position on the team, any QB can only do much. I admit you and Meks might be right about Gruden being the major factor, in this case given his success here and Cincy, since Cousins didn't do much the last 2 years of the Shanahans. We will see more next season when Gruden has a different QB here. But good point, Meks.