trump Inpeachment...............

[SunnySide]

Dems should have issued subpoenas to witnesses. Then taken it to Court. In an ideal world, the House indicts and the Senate tries it. But in this political world, Pelosi knew or should have known that the Senate would block any attempt at actually putting on a trial or doing their legislative duty.

Now the Legislative branch completely works for the Executive branch. Now every sitting president will be "impeached" if the other political party controls the House.

They should have issued subpoenas and forced the Court's to rule on testimony.

Our political system is broken and there is no going back imo. Our democracy and republic isnt dying, its dead.

C'est la vie.

this is Idiocracy in real time.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Dems should have issued subpoenas to witnesses. Then taken it to Court. In an ideal world, the House indicts and the Senate tries it. But in this political world, Pelosi knew or should have known that the Senate would block any attempt at actually putting on a trial or doing their legislative duty.



Now the Legislative branch completely works for the Executive branch. Now every sitting president will be "impeached" if the other political party controls the House.



They should have issued subpoenas and forced the Court's to rule on testimony.



Our political system is broken and there is no going back imo. Our democracy and republic isnt dying, its dead.



C'est la vie.



this is Idiocracy in real time.

This is the truth honestly.

Trump is an idiotic president, and everyone knows I support him, but the whole body politic has left the realm of what the framers intended.

Washington warned of foreign entanglements and political division. He was right too.

They had the Senate not democratically elected but sent feom the states. Thus giving our country's government structure four separate and independent paths to judge the will of the people. We have already removed the Senate check, and likely soon, in this divisive time, we will see the electoral college check be removed as well. And then we will be a "pure" democracy, followed shortly after that our childrens children won't even understand what was special about the United States of America.





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[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

we will see the electoral college check be removed as well. And then we will be a "pure" democracy, followed shortly after that our childrens children won't even understand what was special about the United States of America.

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2 senators represent 760k people (North Dakota)
2 senators represent 882k people (South Dakota)
2 senators represent 39M (California)
2 senators represent 28M (Texas)
2 senators represent 19M (NY)

^^ that is so unbalanced and I dont want to hear about how the House number of reps per State takes into account citizens etc.

But it is what it is.

Electoral College - That would take a constitutional amendment and I dont see that happenning in our life time. While it would mean an automatic D president, I wouldnt want that.

As a D, I dont think Id want to see what an AOC left president, house and senate would do. We are seeing what the worst of the R can and will do now. Thankfully the D took the house to pump the brakes a bit.

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Subpoenas - the whole point in issuing them is so you can enforce them. Im typing one up now as we speak. if you dont enforce a subpoena, its not a subpoena .... its a request with a "pretty please" at the end.

Pelosi should have absolutely sought to enforce the subpoenas vs this shit show of now wanting to re-open things etc.

It is what it is.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

2 senators represent 760k people (North Dakota)

2 senators represent 882k people (South Dakota)

2 senators represent 39M (California)

2 senators represent 28M (Texas)

2 senators represent 19M (NY)



^^ that is so unbalanced and I dont want to hear about how the House number of reps per State takes into account citizens etc.



But it is what it is.



Electoral College - That would take a constitutional amendment and I dont see that happenning in our life time. While it would mean an automatic D president, I wouldnt want that.



As a D, I dont think Id want to see what an AOC left president, house and senate would do. We are seeing what the worst of the R can and will do now. Thankfully the D took the house to pump the brakes a bit.



---------------------



Subpoenas - the whole point in issuing them is so you can enforce them. Im typing one up now as we speak. if you dont enforce a subpoena, its not a subpoena .... its a request with a "pretty please" at the end.



Pelosi should have absolutely sought to enforce the subpoenas vs this shit show of now wanting to re-open things etc.



It is what it is.

Not trying to pick, but you know the Senate specifically was designed to balance the interests of big population states with the interests of small population states. It was designed from the beginning to be a check against pure democracy.

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[mooby]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Dems should have issued subpoenas to witnesses. Then taken it to Court. In an ideal world, the House indicts and the Senate tries it. But in this political world, Pelosi knew or should have known that the Senate would block any attempt at actually putting on a trial or doing their legislative duty.

Now the Legislative branch completely works for the Executive branch. Now every sitting president will be "impeached" if the other political party controls the House.

They should have issued subpoenas and forced the Court's to rule on testimony.

Our political system is broken and there is no going back imo. Our democracy and republic isnt dying, its dead.

C'est la vie.

this is Idiocracy in real time.

+1

I don't have much to add, this outcome isn't unexpected. Congratulations President Trump, your strategy of dividing and conquering Americans is succeeding.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by mooby

+1

I don't have much to add, this outcome isn't unexpected. Congratulations President Trump, your strategy of dividing and conquering Americans is succeeding.

So you agree with impeachment without meeting the threshold of a crime?

Sunnyside argument is so full of shit it’s not worth addressing.

“They shoulda”? Why didn’t they? Because they never had the evidence of a crime and they would never want the president to face a crime where he was given due process.

So the system is broken because of what, the constitution? Do you seriously want partisan impeachments based because you don’t like person, not based on meeting threshold of high crimes and misdemeanors?

So let’s list the bullshit events found to be without any substantial fact or merit: Russian collusion and obstruction, Brett Kavenaugh conspiracy smear and a partisan impeachment without meeting criminal threshold.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

So you agree with impeachment without meeting the threshold of a crime?

Sunnyside argument is so full of shit it’s not worth addressing.

“They shoulda”? Why didn’t they? Because they never had the evidence of a crime and they would never want the president to face a crime where he was given due process.

So the system is broken because of what, the constitution? Do you seriously want partisan impeachments based because you don’t like person, not based on meeting threshold of high crimes and misdemeanors?

So let’s list the bullshit events found to be without any substantial fact or merit: Russian collusion and obstruction, Brett Kavenaugh conspiracy smear and a partisan impeachment without meeting criminal threshold.

I enjoy how your threshold is "did he commit a crime" when the DOJ explicitly argued as recently as last week that one of the tools the House of Reps has at their disposal is using impeachment when the EO ignores a subpoena.

I agree with Sunny and Cred. The Dems screwed up by not sending subpoenas to Bolton/Mulvaney/etc. from the House, and then going the judicial route when they would eventually be ignored. They have nobody to blame but their selves for the outcome.

Lets go through the list of Trump defenses since this thing has started.

"The whistleblower is fake news." Right, except the DNI and his Deputy both resigned immediately after the phone call in protest. In fact, the DNI interrupted a meeting to tell Sue Gordon to resign, that's how urgent it was. A Trump appointee (Intelligence Community Inspector General) literally reaffirmed the whistleblower complaint was credible. The complaint in question was "Trump solicited foreign interference to help win the 2020 election."

Trump's next defense was that he didn't ask the Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. But of course, Trump had to literally tell reporters firsthand just before restarting trade talks with China that he thinks the Ukraine and China should start investigating Biden.. And then his acting Chief of Staff held a press conference and admitted it was a quid pro quo. And then the Chair of the Federal Elections Commission literally posted a letter saying it was absolutely illegal for anybody to solicit help from any foreign national to interfere in a U.S. election. And of course, who can forget if Trump really was concerned about the Bidens being corrupt, he could order any number of official US departments he controls to investigate them. I'm sure it was just a coincidence he decided his biggest threat (at the time) to his reelection was the one who needed to be investigated too.

So then Trump switched it up and said the phone call was about investigating corruption in the Ukraine. Riiiiight. Even though he has repeatedly tried to cut foreign aid programs designed to combat corruption.

Originally Posted by WaPo

In another example, the administration sought to streamline a number of overseas democracy assistance and foreign aid accounts under one larger umbrella called the Economic Support and Development Fund. The White House believed that consolidation would cut those programs by more than $2 billion. This fund, too, is aimed at fighting corruption in countries around the world, among other goals, according to White House budget documents. Spending in Ukraine for the accounts in question was $250 million in 2018; the White House has asked for $145 million in 2020 under the new iteration of the program.

Speaking of the phone call, according to the transcript released by the EO, our President told Zelensky he was going to have his personal lawyer reach out along with Barr and he should work with them. Why is Trump's personal lawyer working with the Attorney General on official US matters? Speaking of the transcript, my literal favorite part of that transcript is on the front page where it explicitly reads:

Originally Posted by President Trump's transcript

CAUTION: A Memorandum of a Telephone Conversation.· (TELCON) is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion.

So then the defense changed to "well you have no firsthand witnesses." Conveniently ignoring testimony from Col. Vindman, Fiona Hill, Ambassadors Sondland and Taylor (one a Trump donor who got EU ambassador b/c of his donations, the other a 50 year public servant).

Then after the witnesses argument was debunked, his defense moved onto "this trial is a sham." All the subpoenas Congress did deliver were ignored, and yes the Dems screwed up not taking it to the courts for enforcement. Sure it would've dragged it out longer, but it was absolutely necessary considering they already knew the Republican strategy.

TL;DR: Presidential defense strategy...
DOJ: The complaint is not an urgent matter
"The complaint isn't credible..."
"He didn't do that"
"Yeah, he just did that on live tv but it's not quid pro quo"
"Okay, everyone involved says its quid pro quo but there are no witnesses or evidence"
"Okay, they have witnesses with firsthand testimony, but he was investigating corruption. It wasn't about personal gain"
"Okay, Pelosi won't send the articles because she has no case"
"Now we have to defend the President, uhhh, the President has the authority to do whatever he wants"
"We don't need to call witnesses because the House already did that"

In conclusion, Donald Trump withheld 400+ million in Congressionally approved assistance to the Ukraine until he could no longer justify it because he wanted Zelensky to announce an investigation into the Bidens. What did he stand to gain from that? It weakens what he thought stood a good chance at being his primary opponent in the 2020 election. Why has Zelensky stood in Trump's defense through all this? Because he stood to gain political legitimacy in his own country when Trump will eventually invite him to the White House, recognizing his authority. We have multiple witnesses who confirmed all of this, including people who listened in on the phone call, and people who worked directly with Trump to handle his back-channel diplomacy with the Ukraine. The only thing we don't have is witnesses or documents from the Executive Office, which Trump should have absolutely no problem supplying if they would've confirmed his innocence. We have motive, witnesses, documents, testimony, which would absolutely be more than enough to convict in any court. But a sitting president cannot be subject to the courts, which is why impeachment was the only option.

Fuck your argument Chico.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by mooby

+1

I don't have much to add, this outcome isn't unexpected. Congratulations President Trump, your strategy of dividing and conquering Americans is succeeding.

We knew the outcome when it started , the senate made fools of themselves. Your right on the money about trump dividing the country.It's a sin but at least chico will be happy.