Wft quarterback of the future

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by punch it in

That is fine. See you in 2022. Maybe. If the guy pans out. Because Smith and Allen and DH are not winning us a super bowl next year. They are not bringing us close to one.
I have no problem with drafting a quarterback but we need a more productive stop gap to mentor him because we can win big with one while the youngster learns. The rest of this team is good enough to win big now. The Quarterback position is literally holding us back.
I think taking the money into account and taking your time is fine ... unless our draftee turns into DH again. I believe there is a way to get someone better than Smith for next year that gives us a chance to win without breaking the bank and mortgaging our future all while grooming someone for the future.

How did Joe Gibbs win? Were any of his QB's stars besides Theismann? Next year barring injury we are going to be stacked on both sides, we have some really good players on IR even though unproven, my gut tells me Charles, AGG, Love and maybe even Ruben Foster will pan out. We need someone to manage the ball not a superstar.

I'm intrigued with Steven Montez, maybe with some coaching and mentoring he could rise above Allen and Haskins. I hope he goes to camp next year.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

How did Joe Gibbs win? Were any of his QB's stars besides Theismann? Next year barring injury we are going to be stacked on both sides, we have some really good players on IR even though unproven, my gut tells me Charles, AGG, Love and maybe even Ruben Foster will pan out. We need someone to manage the ball not a superstar.



I'm intrigued with Steven Montez, maybe with some coaching and mentoring he could rise above Allen and Haskins. I hope he goes to camp next year.

Who said anything about a star quarterback? I said someone better than Smith. Someone who can throw it 10-15 yards consistently certainly does not constitute a star.

Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, even Schroeder - those guys when they played for us were all waaaaaaaay more capable than Alex is now. It is not even close.

Not to mention Gibbs also had a hof rb and o line and one of the best wr trios in history. A phenomenon tight end. A Kicker who never missed.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

How did Joe Gibbs win? Were any of his QB's stars besides Theismann? Next year barring injury we are going to be stacked on both sides, we have some really good players on IR even though unproven, my gut tells me Charles, AGG, Love and maybe even Ruben Foster will pan out. We need someone to manage the ball not a superstar.

I'm intrigued with Steven Montez, maybe with some coaching and mentoring he could rise above Allen and Haskins. I hope he goes to camp next year.

As much as I love Joe Gibbs for being the best coach we've ever had, I don't believe the argument that a team can win today in the style that Gibbs won in the 80's is relevant. First of all, Gibbs is a unicorn, in that there is no other coach in history that won 3 SB's with 3 different qb's.

Second of all, the rules of today are more favorable towards teams with elite qb's who put up big numbers.

For reference, let's look at the Super Bowl winners dating back to 2000:

Mahomes, Brady, Foles/Wentz, Brady, P. Manning, Brady, R. Wilson, Flacco, E. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger, E. Manning, P. Manning, Roethlisberger, Brady, Brady, Gannon, Brady, Dilfer.

Now, let's exclude the GOAT because if the model you're trying to build is duplicating the success of the greatest QB/HC the league has ever seen you're gonna have a bad time. What do we have left?

Mahomes x1 (elite)
Foles/Wentz x1 (obviously a one-off at this point)
P. Manning x2 (elite)
Russ Wilson x1 (another elite HOF-tracking qb, noticing a trend here?)
Flacco x1 (along with Eli, the modern day example of combining above-average with clutch performance and a great D to win a title)
Eli Manning x2 (the formula is above average statistical -aka not elite- + clutch + great d = Super Bowl contender/winner)
Rodgers x1 (elite)
Brees x1 (elite)
Roethlisberger x2 (borderline elite + great d)
Gannon x1 (above average + great d)
Dilfer x1 (game manager + HOF worthy D)

Let's break it down another way:

Elite - Mahomes, Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger = 8 titles (14 if you count Brady, which you should absolutely should because Brady has been elite every year until this year). So that's 14/20 titles.

Game manager to above average statistical combined with a clutch performance here and there and a great defense - 6 titles (Eli Manning x2, Foles/Wentz, Flacco, Gannon, Dilfer)

In conclusion, yeah you can win a title in today's NFL when you combine a great defense with an above-average qb capable of clutch performances, but the odds are lower than finding a stud qb and surrounding him with a quality team (that is still gonna need some clutch performances on top of that). It's incredibly hard to win a title in today's NFL, just ask above-average elite qb's like Deshaun Watson, Matt Ryan, Matthew Stafford, Philip Rivers, Kirk Cousins, Lamar Jackson, Cam Newton, Dak Prescott - all guys who were considered above average/had statistical success at some stage in their careers but have never hoisted a Lombardi).

But the odds are higher if you build a solid team in all 3 aspects and also have a great qb capable of pulling off clutch performances on the NFL's biggest stage. Me personally, our defense (while good) has not achieved elite status -yet- and even if it did I'm not sold that Alex Smith is the guy that you can combine with a great defense to win a title. Alex Smith's biggest strength is not making mistakes/turnovers. He's not a playmaker. He's not gonna razzle/dazzle you on occasion. If the defense has a good day and the running game is functioning, that's good enough to win more often than not. But is he going to bail you out when those other units are having bad days? No. Can he serve as a capable bridge qb until the next long term quy is ready to play? Yes. But that's his ceiling as far as I'm concerned.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

As much as I love Joe Gibbs for being the best coach we've ever had, I don't believe the argument that a team can win today in the style that Gibbs won in the 80's is relevant. First of all, Gibbs is a unicorn, in that there is no other coach in history that won 3 SB's with 3 different qb's.

Second of all, the rules of today are more favorable towards teams with elite qb's who put up big numbers.

For reference, let's look at the Super Bowl winners dating back to 2000:

Mahomes, Brady, Foles/Wentz, Brady, P. Manning, Brady, R. Wilson, Flacco, E. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger, E. Manning, P. Manning, Roethlisberger, Brady, Brady, Gannon, Brady, Dilfer.

Now, let's exclude the GOAT because if the model you're trying to build is duplicating the success of the greatest QB/HC the league has ever seen you're gonna have a bad time. What do we have left?

Mahomes x1 (elite)
Foles/Wentz x1 (obviously a one-off at this point)
P. Manning x2 (elite)
Russ Wilson x1 (another elite HOF-tracking qb, noticing a trend here?)
Flacco x1 (along with Eli, the modern day example of combining above-average with clutch performance and a great D to win a title)
Eli Manning x2 (the formula is above average statistical -aka not elite- + clutch + great d = Super Bowl contender/winner)
Rodgers x1 (elite)
Brees x1 (elite)
Roethlisberger x2 (borderline elite + great d)
Gannon x1 (above average + great d)
Dilfer x1 (game manager + HOF worthy D)

Let's break it down another way:

Elite - Mahomes, Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger = 8 titles (14 if you count Brady, which you should absolutely should because Brady has been elite every year until this year). So that's 14/20 titles.

Game manager to above average statistical combined with a clutch performance here and there and a great defense - 6 titles (Eli Manning x2, Foles/Wentz, Flacco, Gannon, Dilfer)

In conclusion, yeah you can win a title in today's NFL when you combine a great defense with an above-average qb capable of clutch performances, but the odds are lower than finding a stud qb and surrounding him with a quality team (that is still gonna need some clutch performances on top of that). It's incredibly hard to win a title in today's NFL, just ask above-average elite qb's like Deshaun Watson, Matt Ryan, Matthew Stafford, Philip Rivers, Kirk Cousins, Lamar Jackson, Cam Newton, Dak Prescott - all guys who were considered above average/had statistical success at some stage in their careers but have never hoisted a Lombardi).

But the odds are higher if you build a solid team in all 3 aspects and also have a great qb capable of pulling off clutch performances on the NFL's biggest stage. Me personally, our defense (while good) has not achieved elite status -yet- and even if it did I'm not sold that Alex Smith is the guy that you can combine with a great defense to win a title. Alex Smith's biggest strength is not making mistakes/turnovers. He's not a playmaker. He's not gonna razzle/dazzle you on occasion. If the defense has a good day and the running game is functioning, that's good enough to win more often than not. But is he going to bail you out when those other units are having bad days? No. Can he serve as a capable bridge qb until the next long term quy is ready to play? Yes. But that's his ceiling as far as I'm concerned.

Between 2000 and 2019 there were 56 qb's drafted in the first round. Here is a good article ranking them: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/...k1gnhl9iqrp2pg

Of the 7 you listed as elite: 4 were 1st rounders, 3 were outside of the first round, and adding in that Rodgers was selected at pick 24, where we almost certainly will be picking before, that means half the qb's you list elite available would theoretically be available when we pick, and also 53 selections that the teams got wrong.

My point is that what is important is that you pick the right qb, and that comes down to Front Office - GM, Scouting and Coach. Now, with the WFT you have the added question of whether the owner will nose around in the selection, and that is where success this year gives RR the extra credibility to keep Dan Snyder at bay.

As for Alex, he is one of those 53 1st rounders, and he certainly is above game manager level. He has that knack to lead winning teams.

[rocnrik]

This team has everything in place except QB to make a run at a super bowl ...good coaching a very good D ( need very little there) .. add a WR opposite of terry ..it’s all there EXCEPT QB ...what do we do ??? One player away .. how far could we go with Brady back there ?? You guys don’t think there is a vet QB out there that we could bring in and spend our draft on WR, OL , LB , DB ... and go win ..

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by rocnrik

This team has everything in place except QB to make a run at a super bowl ...good coaching a very good D ( need very little there) .. add a WR opposite of terry ..it’s all there EXCEPT QB ...what do we do ??? One player away .. how far could we go with Brady back there ?? You guys don’t think there is a vet QB out there that we could bring in and spend our draft on WR, OL , LB , DB ... and go win ..

Why is everyone saying add another WR? We have AGG and Harmon, they both will pan out. I hope they activate AGG this week and use him, I know he can produce.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

Why is everyone saying add another WR? We have AGG and Harmon, they both will pan out. I hope they activate AGG this week and use him, I know he can produce.

Because Harmon's on injured reserve and AGG has 1 catch for 3 yards on the year.

Could they turn out good someday? Sure. Do we want to wait for them to get enough playing time to develop into a quality wideout when we could find a veteran to step in as the #2 this offseason? Ehhh.

[Chief X_Phackter]

Originally Posted by mooby

Because Harmon's on injured reserve and AGG has 1 catch for 3 yards on the year.

Could they turn out good someday? Sure. Do we want to wait for them to get enough playing time to develop into a quality wideout when we could find a veteran to step in as the #2 this offseason? Ehhh.

Exactly. If the opportunity presents itself to be able to snag A Robinson, W Fuller, C Davis, or C Samuel, you do it. If AGG or Harmon pan out, great...but can't really count on them, and not try to upgrade the position.

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by rocnrik

This team has everything in place except QB to make a run at a super bowl ...good coaching a very good D ( need very little there) .. add a WR opposite of terry ..it’s all there EXCEPT QB ...what do we do ??? One player away .. how far could we go with Brady back there ?? You guys don’t think there is a vet QB out there that we could bring in and spend our draft on WR, OL , LB , DB ... and go win ..

I agree, the window will be open for the next 4-5 years.. This team needs to find a QB asap

[Chief X_Phackter]

Originally Posted by rocnrik

This team has everything in place except QB to make a run at a super bowl ...good coaching a very good D ( need very little there) .. add a WR opposite of terry ..it’s all there EXCEPT QB ...what do we do ??? One player away .. how far could we go with Brady back there ?? You guys don’t think there is a vet QB out there that we could bring in and spend our draft on WR, OL , LB , DB ... and go win ..

I think I'll wait until after Sunday to decide whether or not this is a Super Bowl caliber defense. They have shown that they can definitely make plays, and at times carry the team, but let's not forget about the competition that they have balled out against.

The Seattle game will show us what this D is made of.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by Chief X_Phackter

I think I'll wait until after Sunday to decide whether or not this is a Super Bowl caliber defense. They have shown that they can definitely make plays, and at times carry the team, but let's not forget about the competition that they have balled out against.

The Seattle game will show us what this D is made of.

Seattle's OL is not even close to Pitt or SF OL's, the key is to contain Wilson, he's most dangerous when he's on the run. We'll see if he can get away from the spy and D, I have a feeling he's going to be running like Lamar Jackson and try to wear out our D if he's not killed by Sweat and Young.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

Seattle's OL is not even close to Pitt or SF OL's, the key is to contain Wilson, he's most dangerous when he's on the run. We'll see if he can get away from the spy and D, I have a feeling he's going to be running like Lamar Jackson and try to wear out our D if he's not killed by Sweat and Young.

Wilson is terrific at protecting himself, and scoring when the pressure is on. But our defense has shown itself to be very disciplined in their assignments so I think they will be ok against Seattle. They will give up some plays and points tho' so our offense can not be stagnant. The WFT needs to look at the NYG-SEA game and follow that blueprint.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by rocnrik

This team has everything in place except QB to make a run at a super bowl ...good coaching a very good D ( need very little there) .. add a WR opposite of terry ..it’s all there EXCEPT QB ...what do we do ??? One player away .. how far could we go with Brady back there ?? You guys don’t think there is a vet QB out there that we could bring in and spend our draft on WR, OL , LB , DB ... and go win ..

Completely my point as opposed to a project quarterback that could take 3-4 years to fully come of age. Has to be a vet that can win now and for 3-4 years out there. Once we winning then go get a quarterback in the draft. Then you got your master mentor situation. Alex just isn’t good enough anymore. Obviously hitting a gem in the later rounds now would be awesome.

[Chief X_Phackter]

Originally Posted by punch it in

Completely my point as opposed to a project quarterback that could take 3-4 years to fully come of age. Has to be a vet that can win now and for 3-4 years out there. Once we winning then go get a quarterback in the draft. Then you got your master mentor situation. Alex just isn’t good enough anymore. Obviously hitting a gem in the later rounds now would be awesome.

I'm no cap expert, but that just seems crazy given what Alex is still due. It would have to be a cheap Vet, and if it's a cheap Vet, is he really an upgrade? If it's not a cheap Vet then you are jeopardizing the opportunity to upgrade the positions around him in free agency, and you just take your chances in the draft. There are some decisions to be made ($$ to be spent) on the Oline and elsewhere.

Scherff and Roullier are both UFA this offseason, as well as Sundberg, Hopkins, KPL, Darby, Cam Sims, Reaves, Moreau, all the TEs except for Thomas. I wouldn't mind an upgrade at tackle since we don't know what we have in Charles. WR needs to be upgraded, and TE. This defense is good, but the back seven could use some upgrades/extensions... I just don't see how you tie up a bunch of additional $ in the QB position, and still improve the rest of the team, or even maintain what you have.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by Chief X_Phackter

I'm no cap expert, but that just seems crazy given what Alex is still due. It would have to be a cheap Vet, and if it's a cheap Vet, is he really an upgrade? If it's not a cheap Vet then you are jeopardizing the opportunity to upgrade the positions around him in free agency, and you just take your chances in the draft. There are some decisions to be made ($$ to be spent) on the Oline and elsewhere.



Scherff and Roullier are both UFA this offseason, as well as Sundberg, Hopkins, KPL, Darby, Cam Sims, Reaves, Moreau, all the TEs except for Thomas. I wouldn't mind an upgrade at tackle since we don't know what we have in Charles. WR needs to be upgraded, and TE. This defense is good, but the back seven could use some upgrades/extensions... I just don't see how you tie up a bunch of additional $ in the QB position, and still improve the rest of the team, or even maintain what you have.

Im certainly no cap expert but Snyder will find a way to pay say Stafford or Rivers if he thinks we can seriously contend for a title next year. We have a few key guys injured coming back. We have the draft. I dont know how much of a splash in free agency we would need to make. Also RR will have a full pre season and a lot of our young guys are only going to get better.
That being said Im all for what Mooby alluded to which is trading down and giving up 2022’s first for a guy like Zach Wilson and then you can spend in free agency.
Problem is FA starts March so if all the vets get signed and we cant trade down in April well.....