Fresh Start Political Thread

[mooby]

Originally Posted by sdskinsfan2001

Curious how the U.S. vets Regular Joe that lives in Afghanistan. Does Afghanistan keep actual records of people?

I would assume Afghans that assisted American forces - either through translating or through helping via some other manner - IE helping build bases that we lived on or supported projects that we financed - would also be prioritized. I would also think the military would keep track of these people that were cleared to assist them so that they could be helped via green card/etc. later.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by sdskinsfan2001

Curious how the U.S. vets Regular Joe that lives in Afghanistan. Does Afghanistan keep actual records of people?

We have records of people here. What good does it do? Will be another domestic terrorist attack in 3…2…

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by jamf

60,000+ Afgan refugees coming to the states!

Quick Reminder for Conservatives:
All lives matter.
Jesus would welcome them with open arms.

We can give back anyone who was at the Capitol in a red hat for starters. Id feel 1000 percent safer with them here and all the whack jobs reading q anon sites and buying guns for the “revolution “. Even swap.
Could some of the 60 k be bad people. Of course. Can they be worse ? No. Chances are extremely high that they are not all on par with domestic terrorists.

[nonniey]

Most Americans in general don't grasp this. You'd think someone who is President could (unfortunately the last two don't/didn't) Good explanation on what we were doing in Afghanistan and why leaving was an idiotic mistake.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ar_146300.html

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

Most Americans in general don't grasp this. You'd think someone who is President could (unfortunately the last two don't/didn't) Good explanation on what we were doing in Afghanistan and why leaving was an idiotic mistake.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ar_146300.html

There was no finite game of war for us to win, declare victory, and return from. Our mission in that mountainous, tribal, quasi-nation-state that fostered terrorists was never to achieve a victory and head home. It was to maintain the minimum military presence necessary to ensure order and stop violent terrorists. It was not an “endless war” but an infinite game.

^^^ conclusion from the article you cited.

I can see the benefit of that but after the ANA folded and bribed away, learning that the 300k army we were paying for was actually 100k, the level of funds mismanagement, cost of all these contractors and "friendlies" .. plus the annual cost of just paying aid to afghanistan govt

Was it worth continuing the charade?

I say no.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

There was no finite game of war for us to win, declare victory, and return from. Our mission in that mountainous, tribal, quasi-nation-state that fostered terrorists was never to achieve a victory and head home. It was to maintain the minimum military presence necessary to ensure order and stop violent terrorists. It was not an “endless war” but an infinite game.

^^^ conclusion from the article you cited.

I can see the benefit of that but after the ANA folded and bribed away, learning that the 300k army we were paying for was actually 100k, the level of funds mismanagement, cost of all these contractors and "friendlies" .. plus the annual cost of just paying aid to afghanistan govt

Was it worth continuing the charade?

I say no.

It certainly appears like we are paying an enormously higher price (Prestige, trust, lives and yes probably treasure too(which you were highlighting)) in leaving than we would have if we stayed. In other words it certainly looks like it was worth staying. Due to this surrender, we've already payed more in lives than we had in the last 18 months and frankly I'm sure other Americans have already been killed there that we don't know about yet and more will killed due to our surrender of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by nonniey

It certainly appears like we are paying an enormously higher price in leaving than we would have if we stayed. In other words it certainly looks like it was worth staying. We've already payed more in lives than we had in the last 18 months and frankly I'm sure other Americans have already been killed there that we don't know about yet and more will killed due to our surrender of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

I am really torn, overall I supported exiting Afghanistan, but at the same point we still have troops in Europe 75 years after WWII. The main difference I guess is that Europe had functioning governments that chose to stay connected not puppet governments. If people in any country choose not to defend themselves and create a stable form of government, then we can't count that cost of exiting as anything but the acceptance that we are not an empire, world police organization, or dictatorship; and we should have left long ago.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I am really torn, overall I supported exiting Afghanistan, but at the same point we still have troops in Europe 75 years after WWII. The main difference I guess is that Europe had functioning governments that chose to stay connected not puppet governments. If people in any country choose not to defend themselves and create a stable form of government, then we can't count that cost of exiting as anything but the acceptance that we are not an empire, world police organization, or dictatorship; and we should have left long ago.

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We are all wrong at times, admitting one was wrong in a position one took is something most won't do. You look like you are mulling over admitting supporting an exit was the wrong position to take.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I am really torn, overall I supported exiting Afghanistan, but at the same point we still have troops in Europe 75 years after WWII. The main difference I guess is that Europe had functioning governments that chose to stay connected not puppet governments. If people in any country choose not to defend themselves and create a stable form of government, then we can't count that cost of exiting as anything but the acceptance that we are not an empire, world police organization, or dictatorship; and we should have left long ago.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

I think it was the right decision but bad planning. All of our allies should have been evacuated before a reduced military presence. I have read a lot recently that the Afghan people not really happy with the government the US established and that in and of itself is part of the collapse. I will confess after 9/11 I was more than okay with the decision to go into Afghanistan. As time went on, we killed Bin Laden and still didn't leave I began to question why we were ever there.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

It certainly appears like we are paying an enormously higher price (Prestige, trust, lives and yes probably treasure too(which you were highlighting)) in leaving than we would have if we stayed. In other words it certainly looks like it was worth staying. Due to this surrender, we've already payed more in lives than we had in the last 18 months and frankly I'm sure other Americans have already been killed there that we don't know about yet and more will killed due to our surrender of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

ive heard 3 things so far that I agree with.

1. from day 1 back in early 2000 .. perhaps the best approach wouldnt have been to try and stabilize the entire country and competing tribes but take like half of it, fortify that area and let the other half be taliban a al S Korea and N Korea.

2. may 1 withdrawl (while still being rushed and imperfect) was a better date bc that would have been right at beginning of the fighting season and the Taliban wouldnt have been poised to threaten Kabul so quickly .. vs now, august right in the middle of the war season.

3. If we stayed, it wasnt going to as "peaceful" as it had been the past few years. I think the calmness the past few years was conditioned on us leaving.

For whatever its worth, this keyboard warrior is glad we are pulling out.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

ive heard 3 things so far that I agree with.

1. from day 1 back in early 2000 .. perhaps the best approach wouldnt have been to try and stabilize the entire country and competing tribes but take like half of it, fortify that area and let the other half be taliban a al S Korea and N Korea.

2. may 1 withdrawl (while still being rushed and imperfect) was a better date bc that would have been right at beginning of the fighting season and the Taliban wouldnt have been poised to threaten Kabul so quickly .. vs now, august right in the middle of the war season.

3. If we stayed, it wasnt going to as "peaceful" as it had been the past few years. I think the calmness the past few years was conditioned on us leaving.

For whatever its worth, this keyboard warrior is glad we are pulling out.

RE Point 3. The "peaceful" period goes back to 2014 years before anyone in power was proposing leaving. We had this under control and along came Trump and Biden who thought surrender was the better option. It is now readily apparent it was the worst choice that could have been made.

[SunnySide]

A Texas law that would ban abortions after as early as six weeks is poised to take effect Wednesday, after a federal appellate court's rulings stymied efforts to block the law.

On Friday night, the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals canceled a hearing planned for Monday, at which more than 20 abortion providers had hoped to persuade a federal district court in Austin to block the law from taking effect.

Providers have sued to overturn the law, which they say is the nation's strictest and would create what they call a “bounty hunting scheme” in allowing members of the general public to sue those who might have violated the law. The law, Senate Bill 8, would prohibit abortions after cardiac activity can be detected without specifying a time frame. This can be as early as six weeks’ gestation, before many women know they are pregnant. The term “fetal heartbeat” is considered a misnomer because an embryo doesn’t possess a heart at that point.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08...circuit-court/

(CNN)A Texas state law that bans abortion after as early as six weeks into the pregnancy could provide the playbook for red states to pass extreme abortion restrictions -- without having to wait for the Supreme Court to revisit Roe v. Wade.
The measure -- signed into law by Republican Gov. Greg Abbott in May and set to go into effect on Wednesday -- prohibits abortion providers from conducting abortions once a fetal heartbeat is detected. It would effectively outlaw at least 85% of the abortions sought in the state, according to opponents of the law, since that point is around six weeks into the pregnancy, before some women know they're pregnant.
The law was passed amid a slew of restrictions that were approved by GOP legislatures across the country this year, after the confirmation of Justice Amy Coney Barrett jerked the Supreme Court further to right and made it more likely that the court will scale back or reverse entirely Roe v. Wade, the landmark 1973 decision that enshrined a constitutional right to an abortion before the fetus is viable.

But among those restrictions, the Texas bill stands out for the novel approach it takes in curtailing the procedure.

228 GOP lawmakers call on Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade
228 GOP lawmakers call on Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade
Rather than imposing a criminal or regulatory punishment for those who conduct abortions after the point in the pregnancy, the state law created a so-called "private right of action" to enforce the restriction. Essentially, the legislature deputized private citizens to bring civil litigation -- with the threat of $10,000 or more in damages -- against providers or even anyone who helped a woman access an abortion after six weeks.

"The way the bill is structured incentivizes vigilante lawsuits that will harass abortion providers and those who support providing abortions in Texas," Adriana Piñon, an attorney at the Texas chapter of ACLU, told CNN.
The approach was aimed at insulating the law from the sort of federal legal challenges that would prevent it from going into effect. One such lawsuit -- brought by several clinics represented by the ACLU and other groups -- is now mired in a complicated procedural dispute that has prompted the clinics to ask for a Supreme Court intervention.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/31/polit...ner/index.html

Feels like an Onion article.

Interesting to see how this plays out. Kinda crappy for the Texas 5th Circuit to sit on it then cancel the hearing at the last moment.

[SunnySide]

Abortions are officially banned in Texas as of midnight last night.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Abortions are officially banned in Texas as of midnight last night.

6 weeks is a step too far, 18-20 weeks would be reasonable and probably have a good chance of winning in court this 6 week restriction will eventually be overturned.

Frustrating that the most extreme elements on both sides are the ones that actually get their policies implemented on this issue (Vermont is the other extreme).

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

6 weeks is a step too far, 18-20 weeks would be reasonable and probably have a good chance of winning in court this 6 week restriction will eventually be overturned.

Frustrating that the most extreme elements on both sides are the ones that actually get their policies implemented on this issue (Vermont is the other extreme).

6 weeks is a total ban.

Plus it encourages citizens to sue other citizens with a bounty of at least 10k ... this is absurd. How does some random person have standing to sue another random person?

Justice Alito sat on this.

The far right are always screaming a D wants to take your guns away. Far left scream a R wants to abolish abortion.

We always "that wont happen, dont worry about some extreme hypothetical used to scare voters" ...

Well it happened.

Having a hard time not thinking bad thoughts about the religious right.

America is not supposed to be a therocracy. Religious political activism is not cool.