Should Brunell be replaced? (merged)

[irish]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Ramsey is a better QB than Brunell?

Based on what?

A gut feeling?

Everybody on this site thought PR was the best QB back in Sept.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by irish

Everybody on this site thought PR was the best QB back in Sept.

You might want to check that, because I don't think everyone felt that way.

Offiss is saying at this point in their careers, Ramsey is the better QB. I'm saying based on what? Their on field performances? How? Brunell has clearly put up better numbers than Ramsey and he is clearly the more proven QB. That's not even debateable. If you compare what they've done on the field, I don't see how anyone can say Patrick Ramsey is a better QB than Mark Brunell, unless you're just biased. In that case, fine, but at least admit it.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

You might want to check that, because I don't think everyone felt that way.

Offiss is saying at this point in their careers, Ramsey is the better QB. I'm saying based on what? Their on field performances? How? Brunell has clearly put up better numbers than Ramsey and he is clearly the more proven QB. That's not even debateable. If you compare what they've done on the field, I don't see how anyone can say Patrick Ramsey is a better QB than Mark Brunell, unless you're just biased. In that case, fine, but at least admit it.

Youre right, I was the lone descenter.

How can anyone compare MB and PR's careers? PR actually has to play more than a few games to have a career.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

You might want to check that, because I don't think everyone felt that way.

Offiss is saying at this point in their careers, Ramsey is the better QB. I'm saying based on what? Their on field performances? How? Brunell has clearly put up better numbers than Ramsey and he is clearly the more proven QB. That's not even debateable. If you compare what they've done on the field, I don't see how anyone can say Patrick Ramsey is a better QB than Mark Brunell, unless you're just biased. In that case, fine, but at least admit it.

That is my opinion, although I do base a lot of that on what I saw last season when both played under the same conditions, where Ramsey clearly outplayed the seasoned veteran in Brunell, obviously we have nothing to base it on this season as Ramsey hasen't been given a chance to show whether or not he can play in this offense.

But in all do respect Matty, you were on the Ramsey bandwagon last season as well, and I wonder how you based your conclusion last season, as well as through training camp, and up until Gibbs decieded to change QB's?


In all likelyhood we will mis the playoff's for the second year in a row, would anyone be willing to say if Gibbs came out and said when he first took over that we are trading for Brunell, and we will be out of the playoffs for the first 2 years of his tenure, would then support the trade for Brunell? I doubt it, I believe most would say if this is a 3 year project then allow Patrick to play and develope and see where we are at the end of the first year, because Brunell will be over the hill by the time we are a playoff team, and Ramsey if he is the goods will be in his prime, instead we have an ageing QB who again has us looking for a lot of help to squeek into the playoffs.

If some want to argue that regardless Brunell would have outplayed Ramsey? OK, but we will never really know because he wasen't given a legitamate chance to prove otherwise, now we are 2 years down the road, Brunell's on his way out, and we still don't really know for sure what we have in Ramsey, seems like a major waste of time, and money, but that's just my opinion.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by offiss

That is my opinion, although I do base a lot of that on what I saw last season when both played under the same conditions, where Ramsey clearly outplayed the seasoned veteran in Brunell, obviously we have nothing to base it on this season as Ramsey hasen't been given a chance to show whether or not he can play in this offense.

But in all do respect Matty, you were on the Ramsey bandwagon last season as well, and I wonder how you based your conclusion last season, as well as through training camp, and up until Gibbs decieded to change QB's?


In all likelyhood we will mis the playoff's for the second year in a row, would anyone be willing to say if Gibbs came out and said when he first took over that we are trading for Brunell, and we will be out of the playoffs for the first 2 years of his tenure, would then support the trade for Brunell? I doubt it, I believe most would say if this is a 3 year project then allow Patrick to play and develope and see where we are at the end of the first year, because Brunell will be over the hill by the time we are a playoff team, and Ramsey if he is the goods will be in his prime, instead we have an ageing QB who again has us looking for a lot of help to squeek into the playoffs.

If some want to argue that regardless Brunell would have outplayed Ramsey? OK, but we will never really know because he wasen't given a legitamate chance to prove otherwise, now we are 2 years down the road, Brunell's on his way out, and we still don't really know for sure what we have in Ramsey, seems like a major waste of time, and money, but that's just my opinion.

I'm tired of talking about what could have been with Ramsey and hypotheticals, let's talk about facts and the facts say Brunell is the better and more proven QB. Ramsey has shown nothing in his career to indicate he would be having a similar or better season than Brunell is having. However, looking at Brunell's career it's not a huge surprise. The guy has been there, done that.

Regarding last year yes I supported the decision to play Ramsey and I supported it during the preseason. But I also defended Brunell along the way when the majority of people here thought he was all washed up.

As I've said before, I'm not choosing sides here, I support and stand behind Gibbs' decision making more than anything. If Brunell went down and Ramsey came in this week I'd be 100% behind Ramsey just as I'm behind Brunell right now.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm tired of talking about what could have been with Ramsey and hypotheticals, let's talk about facts and the facts say Brunell is the better and more proven QB. Ramsey has shown nothing in his career to indicate he would be having a similar or better season than Brunell is having. However, looking at Brunell's career it's not a huge surprise. The guy has been there, done that.

Regarding last year yes I supported the decision to play Ramsey and I supported it during the preseason. But I also defended Brunell along the way when the majority of people here thought he was all washed up.

As I've said before, I'm not choosing sides here, I support and stand behind Gibbs' decision making more than anything. If Brunell went down and Ramsey came in this week I'd be 100% behind Ramsey just as I'm behind Brunell right now.

Regarding last year yes I supported the decision to play Ramsey and I supported it during the preseason. But I also defended Brunell along the way when the majority of people here thought he was all washed up.

Yes, as did I, after Brunells debacle last season pretty much everyone wanted his head, and yes I was one of the few to defend the fact that although I felt Ramsey would be better for us, brunell was made to look far worse than he was, I put a lot of the blame on Gibbs and his simplistic offense, well guess what the team has evolved some from last season, and Brunells play has been head and shoulders better than last season, which brings me to my point, under the same circumstances last season Ramsey outplayed Brunell [against better defenses I might add] then why is it so difficult to believe that under better circumstance this year Ramsey wouldn't be even better than he was last season, and yes better than brunell has been this season, at least I have something to base my evaluation on, there is no way to base an evaluation on him being a failure this season because he hasen't played, the only thing anyone can hang their hat's on is Gibbs deciesion to bench him, I know this is taboo around here but is there a remote possiblity, just a chance, that Gibbs could perhaps have been wrong about the QB situation? Does that possibility exist, he has admitted to making mistakes personel wise in other areas, I am not saying that that is the case, but could it be possible?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

Yes, as did I, after Brunells debacle last season pretty much everyone wanted his head, and yes I was one of the few to defend the fact that although I felt Ramsey would be better for us, brunell was made to look far worse than he was, I put a lot of the blame on Gibbs and his simplistic offense, well guess what the team has evolved some from last season, and Brunells play has been head and shoulders better than last season, which brings me to my point, under the same circumstances last season Ramsey outplayed Brunell [against better defenses I might add] then why is it so difficult to believe that under better circumstance this year Ramsey wouldn't be even better than he was last season, and yes better than brunell has been this season, at least I have something to base my evaluation on, there is no way to base an evaluation on him being a failure this season because he hasen't played, the only thing anyone can hang their hat's on is Gibbs deciesion to bench him, I know this is taboo around here but is there a remote possiblity, just a chance, that Gibbs could perhaps have been wrong about the QB situation? Does that possibility exist, he has admitted to making mistakes personel wise in other areas, I am not saying that that is the case, but could it be possible?

That's one huge run on sentence! Okay, let's break this down. First of all, as much as this offense needed some tweaking from the previous year, I find it hard to put the blame on Brunell's play on the system. If the system was too simplistic like you say, then Brunell would have had an easy time adjusting to it. Let's face it, Brunell stunk it up last year. Part of the reason was that he was injured. I think the other part of it had to do with him being away from playing for at least year in Jacksonville. When you're an older athelete it is much harder to comeback from an injury.

Patrick Ramsey played better than Mark Brunell did LAST year, but that isn't really saying much. I felt Patrick came in and showed signs of promise, but he also showed signs of being a long ways from being a true starter. This year, I was hyped about how much Patrick would've improved. Yes, I base this on preseason, but why should I not? Patrick Ramsey showed no signs of improvement during preseason, and it spilled into our first regular season game.

Maybe you're argument is based on principle. You feel it's only fair to give Ramsey 8 or 9 games like Brunell was given last year. Well yes, that would be considered fair to a certain extent. But, these NFL teams do not put their success in how fair things are. They put their success in winning. However, judging by how Patrick Ramsey played in preseason, we would more than likely be 4-8 right now, if not worse. I witnessed nothing about Ramsey's play that would've suggested anything much better than that.

As far as Brunell's play lately, he hasn't played as well as he has for the most part of this season. He has also had two of his starting receivers out. With both Thrash and Patten in there with Moss, Brunell is a better quarterback. When he basically has one proven threat to throw too, how can Mark Brunell duplicate his best performances of this season? It doesn't happen.

Finally, this system is not inept. It is a ball controlled system that thrives off of maximum protection and a strong running game. That is how it has always been. It has always been a run first pass second offense - even during the days of the posse. They made this offense special, because they were probably the best three wide receivers in the league back then. That is probably the biggest reason why we could score points easily. But we don't have Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders now. We have only one receiver in Santana Moss, who I feel could be as good as any of the members of the posse.

Fact is, we are in a position to control our own destiny. We have a winning record and a chance to make the playoffs. That is a whole heck of alot more than what we can say about this team for the most part this past decade. There is alot to look forward to even if we don't make the playoffs this year. This franchise is establishing itself as a good franchise, but that does not happen overnight, nor does it happen on maybes or would've could've should've.

[saskin]

Brunell will finish the year, unless he is injured. He will finish it. The Arizonia game kind of showed that. Brunell threw a lot of picks and Gibbs stuck with him which I see him doing for the rest of this season. Campbell still isn't ready and we shouldn't rush him in. Brunell's in there for a "win now" and Campbell's on the bench for a "win later".

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

That's one huge run on sentence! Okay, let's break this down. First of all, as much as this offense needed some tweaking from the previous year, I find it hard to put the blame on Brunell's play on the system. If the system was too simplistic like you say, then Brunell would have had an easy time adjusting to it. Let's face it, Brunell stunk it up last year. Part of the reason was that he was injured. I think the other part of it had to do with him being away from playing for at least year in Jacksonville. When you're an older athelete it is much harder to comeback from an injury.

Patrick Ramsey played better than Mark Brunell did LAST year, but that isn't really saying much. I felt Patrick came in and showed signs of promise, but he also showed signs of being a long ways from being a true starter. This year, I was hyped about how much Patrick would've improved. Yes, I base this on preseason, but why should I not? Patrick Ramsey showed no signs of improvement during preseason, and it spilled into our first regular season game.

Maybe you're argument is based on principle. You feel it's only fair to give Ramsey 8 or 9 games like Brunell was given last year. Well yes, that would be considered fair to a certain extent. But, these NFL teams do not put their success in how fair things are. They put their success in winning. However, judging by how Patrick Ramsey played in preseason, we would more than likely be 4-8 right now, if not worse. I witnessed nothing about Ramsey's play that would've suggested anything much better than that.

As far as Brunell's play lately, he hasn't played as well as he has for the most part of this season. He has also had two of his starting receivers out. With both Thrash and Patten in there with Moss, Brunell is a better quarterback. When he basically has one proven threat to throw too, how can Mark Brunell duplicate his best performances of this season? It doesn't happen.

Finally, this system is not inept. It is a ball controlled system that thrives off of maximum protection and a strong running game. That is how it has always been. It has always been a run first pass second offense - even during the days of the posse. They made this offense special, because they were probably the best three wide receivers in the league back then. That is probably the biggest reason why we could score points easily. But we don't have Art Monk, Gary Clark, and Ricky Sanders now. We have only one receiver in Santana Moss, who I feel could be as good as any of the members of the posse.

Fact is, we are in a position to control our own destiny. We have a winning record and a chance to make the playoffs. That is a whole heck of alot more than what we can say about this team for the most part this past decade. There is alot to look forward to even if we don't make the playoffs this year. This franchise is establishing itself as a good franchise, but that does not happen overnight, nor does it happen on maybes or would've could've should've.

How do you figure we are in control of our own destiny? FACT? If watching the playoffs on TV is our destiny then I would agree, take a good look we need help to get into the playoffs.

Brunell was hurt last season? Explain to me why he insist's he wasen't, and why he had his best game of the year statistically the week after he supposedly had this big time injury, Brunells explanation was he didn't believe he really had a hole lot of help around him.

As you said winning is the measuring stick in this league, that's winning in the regular season, not pre-season, and Brunell is failing.

Now the contradictions start, on one hand you say that the reason Brunell can't duplicate what he's previously done on offense is because Patten is out, then on the other hand you say we have no one except Moss who was in the posse's league, how many balls did Patten catch, and how much could an inferior talent in Patten to the Posse really effect an offense? And correct me if I am wrong but Brunell was losing games before Patten was injured.

The big reason why we won back in the 80's was because our O-line used to dominate everyone we faced, we would run at will on teams, that doesn't exist anymore, and Gibbs hasen't shown an ability to adjust the offense to compensate for the lack of a dominating offensive line.

And just for the record Moss is more explosive than any reciever Gibbs ever had in DC, and Patten was the same type player as Sanders, except Patten is probably a little faster, Cooley is better than any H-back we had, and a better all around reciever than Didier, one big difference that we had in the 80's that we don't have now, is a strong armed QB who could get the ball deep, Brunell can't throw the deep ball and stretch the defense any more.

As for the ball control aspect in the 80's, only our running game was ball control, our passing game under Gibbs was alway's a downfield passing attack, and that's part of the problem, with Portis he's more of a homerun hitter than a ball control back.

Patrick's play spilled over to the regular season, you were able to make that evaluation after 1 quarter? Not bad! what was your thought on Brunells performance over the coarse of the next 7 quarters before he threw those 2 miracle passes, which only worked because of dallas's total disregard for Brunells ability to throw deep, that ain't happening again. But if your putting a lot of stock into what you saw in the pre-season OK, although most scouts and coaches don't put any stock into the pre-season, and yes that has alway's inc. Gibbs, why becuase of mismatches and vanilla offenses, while most legitamate starters are playing not to get hurt. How indicative was Brunells play in the pre-season, hold up to how he is playing now? I don't think he was succeeding in the pre-season with Patten as one of his WR's either. I do believe Patten played most of the pre-season with Ramsey.

[railcon56]

Originally Posted by irish

Everybody on this site thought PR was the best QB back in Sept.

I still firmly belive he still is....

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by irish

Everybody on this site thought PR was the best QB back in Sept.

Incorrect statement. If you had stated prior to preseason, that would be true. However, seeing both quarterbacks' performances in preseason, I came to the conclusion that Mark Brunell should be starting and not Ramsey.

[irish]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Incorrect statement. If you had stated prior to preseason, that would be true. However, seeing both quarterbacks' performances in preseason, I came to the conclusion that Mark Brunell should be starting and not Ramsey.

I predicted in the preseason that PR would not be the starter in week 4 and was incorrect by 3 games. Everyone told me I was nuts because Gibbs said PR was his man.

There is no way the team will or should change QBs.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by irish

I predicted in the preseason that PR would not be the starter in week 4 and was incorrect by 3 games. Everyone told me I was nuts because Gibbs said PR was his man.

There is no way the team will or should change QBs.

I think you're talking about this thread Yours is post #36. Yeah you called it, but I don't see that anyone even responded to your post, let alone said you were nuts.

[Twilbert07]

We need to stick with the one who brung us (Brunell). That said, I hope he picks up his game. He's thrown only 4 TDs in the past 7 weeks.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I think you're talking about this thread Yours is post #36. Yeah you called it, but I don't see that anyone even responded to your post, let alone said you were nuts.

LOL!!!! PWNED!!!