Should Brunell be replaced? (merged)

[offiss]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Wait, let me get this straight - Brunell can't throw deep any more...even though he did earlier this season...which made the defense respect his ability to throw deep...and they still respect that, so they're covering downfield now...even though Brunell can't throw deep?

Why don't you get that one straightened out and get back to us.

I guess I will have to spell it out for you here we go, dallas's total disregard for Brunells arm strength set up that play, they like other teams weren't committing to the deep ball, Brunell if he throws deep puts way to much air under the ball and makes it easy to catch up, the reason he completed those balls wasen't because he out threw the defense, it was the defenses total disregard for anything deep and he was able to catch them way off guard, a normal coverage there and we are done in that dallas game. If you don't beleive that's the case show 1 game in which Brunell completed a deep ball like the last one to Moss?

So in part he doesn't throw downfield because it takes the ball to long to get there, which allows safties and DB's to recover and make a play on the ball.

2 pass plays doesn't constitute a deep passing GAME early in the season, take away those 2 passes and name all the deep passing plays we have completed this season?

And we have to keep in mind that the first TD pass in that game was about 40 yd, which leaves us with 1 real leagitamate deep ball, I would hope an NFL QB was capable of throwing the ball 40 yds.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by offiss

I guess I will have to spell it out for you here we go, dallas's total disregard for Brunells arm strength set up that play, they like other teams weren't committing to the deep ball, Brunell if he throws deep puts way to much air under the ball and makes it easy to catch up, the reason he completed those balls wasen't because he out threw the defense, it was the defenses total disregard for anything deep and he was able to catch them way off guard, a normal coverage there and we are done in that dallas game. If you don't beleive that's the case show 1 game in which Brunell completed a deep ball like the last one to Moss?

So in part he doesn't throw downfield because it takes the ball to long to get there, which allows safties and DB's to recover and make a play on the ball.

2 pass plays doesn't constitute a deep passing GAME early in the season, take away those 2 passes and name all the deep passing plays we have completed this season?

And we have to keep in mind that the first TD pass in that game was about 40 yd, which leaves us with 1 real leagitamate deep ball, I would hope an NFL QB was capable of throwing the ball 40 yds.

I would have to disagree with you on him just airing out those two balls to Moss in the Dallas game. Mose was not wide open he just had step on the D and both passes had to be perfect or they would have been imcomplete or for no gain after the catch. I cannot comment on the whole season and all our long passes unless I had the time to go back and watch all the games.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by offiss

I guess I will have to spell it out for you here we go, dallas's total disregard for Brunells arm strength set up that play, they like other teams weren't committing to the deep ball, Brunell if he throws deep puts way to much air under the ball and makes it easy to catch up, the reason he completed those balls wasen't because he out threw the defense, it was the defenses total disregard for anything deep and he was able to catch them way off guard, a normal coverage there and we are done in that dallas game. If you don't beleive that's the case show 1 game in which Brunell completed a deep ball like the last one to Moss?

So in part he doesn't throw downfield because it takes the ball to long to get there, which allows safties and DB's to recover and make a play on the ball.

2 pass plays doesn't constitute a deep passing GAME early in the season, take away those 2 passes and name all the deep passing plays we have completed this season?

And we have to keep in mind that the first TD pass in that game was about 40 yd, which leaves us with 1 real leagitamate deep ball, I would hope an NFL QB was capable of throwing the ball 40 yds.

Yeah, you do need to spell it out for me - and everyone else seeing as I'm not the only one who finds your points either contradictory or poorly communicated.

A quick look at the NFL player stats shows Brunell has 30 completions of 20+ yards, 5 of those for 40+ yards. Over 13 games that's an average of 2.3 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Let's take a look around the NFL, shall we?

Carson Palmer (hailed this season for his great arm) in comparison, has 37 completions for 20+ yards and 8 of them for 40+ yards. That's an average of 2.8 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Peyton Manning has 39 completions for 20+ yards, 6 of them went for 40+ yards. That's an average of 3 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Matt Hasselbeck has 36 completions of 20+ yards, 6 of them for 40+ yards. An average of 2.7 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Jake Plummer has 33 completions of 20+ yards, 7 of them for 40+ yards for an average of 2.5 completions of 20+ yards per game.

That's four of the top-ranked, playoff-bound teams in the NFL right now who have QBs completing deep balls no more frequently than Mark Brunell is, unless of course you want to argue that there is a massive, game-breaking difference between 2.3 long completions per game and 2.7.

The simple fact is the offenses problems don't rest solely on Brunell, and arguing his "inability" to throw deep is our problem is just asinine. The offensive line and receiving corps bear as much or more of the responsibility than Brunell does.

Back your rants up with some stats before you go spouting off opinions that seem to be based on little more than feelings and vague notions.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Yeah, you do need to spell it out for me - and everyone else seeing as I'm not the only one who finds your points either contradictory or poorly communicated.

A quick look at the NFL player stats shows Brunell has 30 completions of 20+ yards, 5 of those for 40+ yards. Over 13 games that's an average of 2.3 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Let's take a look around the NFL, shall we?

Carson Palmer (hailed this season for his great arm) in comparison, has 37 completions for 20+ yards and 8 of them for 40+ yards. That's an average of 2.8 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Peyton Manning has 39 completions for 20+ yards, 6 of them went for 40+ yards. That's an average of 3 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Matt Hasselbeck has 36 completions of 20+ yards, 6 of them for 40+ yards. An average of 2.7 completions of 20+ yards per game.

Jake Plummer has 33 completions of 20+ yards, 7 of them for 40+ yards for an average of 2.5 completions of 20+ yards per game.

That's four of the top-ranked, playoff-bound teams in the NFL right now who have QBs completing deep balls no more frequently than Mark Brunell is, unless of course you want to argue that there is a massive, game-breaking difference between 2.3 long completions per game and 2.7.

The simple fact is the offenses problems don't rest solely on Brunell, and arguing his "inability" to throw deep is our problem is just asinine. The offensive line and receiving corps bear as much or more of the responsibility than Brunell does.

Back your rants up with some stats before you go spouting off opinions that seem to be based on little more than feelings and vague notions.

I guess what I am saying is this, yes we have plays over 20 yds and 40, but how many were actually thrown deep, and how many were short routes turned into long plays, you can't just look at stats sometimes their misleading, my contention is that Brunell can't throw deep, not that he can't hit a quick hitch and turn it into a long play, that does have it's benefits but not what I was pointing out. Take a look a Palmer, every highlight is a deep throw not a short pass turned into a long gain, Palmer has been bombing away.

Don't get me wrong I feel brunells short passing game is tremendous he's been showing accuracy that's Montana like, but it's repetative and I believe defenses are now sitting on the short game, without much regard for the deep game, which has stagnated our offense, this allows safeties to play to close to the LOS which really hinders our running game.

The simple fact is the offenses problems don't rest solely on Brunell, and arguing his "inability" to throw deep is our problem is just asinine. The offensive line and receiving corps bear as much or more of the responsibility than Brunell does.

Tell that one to Moss, he couldn't outrun anyone last season.

Our offensive line has provided for the most part enough time to throw deep, and if Moss can't get deep who may be the fastest player in the NFL, then what do you think it may be.

I do agree that many times players are scapegoated because of lack of a team effort, but sometimes that goes the other way as well.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by offiss

I guess what I am saying is this, yes we have plays over 20 yds and 40, but how many were actually thrown deep, and how many were short routes turned into long plays, you can't just look at stats sometimes their misleading, my contention is that Brunell can't throw deep, not that he can't hit a quick hitch and turn it into a long play, that does have it's benefits but not what I was pointing out.

I guess I don't see how the difference between a play where the ball is in the air for 40 yards vs. a play that ends up going for 40 yards, but mostly on the ground really matters. Unfortunately it's not a stat the NFL measures, so we're sorta screwed.

I guess you could argue that if it really is short passes going for long gains rather than long passes, then the defense can play more guys up on the line to try and stop the short passes - but we're still making the long plays regardless.

It seems like the end result is that we have as many long plays as the best teams around. If it's true that Brunell actually isn't throwing the ball long on these plays, then our receivers must be doing an absolutely astonishing job of breaking tackles and turning short passes into long gains to the point that we have similar stats as the Mannings and Palmers. I find that a little hard to believe, but I'm willing to grant that short passes turning into long plays is perhaps contributing somewhat.

Still seems like from a defensive point they have to respect the big play potential of the Skins because long pass or short pass we're getting it done.

I think my main point in all of this discussion is that it's foolish to try to pin this down to one thing. Brunell suddenly heaving the ball 70 yards downfield isn't going to magically fix everything. I place the blame for the offensive troubles squarely on everyone - coaching, playcalling, QB, WRs, offensive line, etc.

Why is it that fans tend to want to blame one single thing as the cause of all the problems?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Why is it that fans tend to want to blame one single thing as the cause of all the problems?

That is a great question! We win as a team, we lose as a team.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Why is it that fans tend to want to blame one single thing as the cause of all the problems?

Fans love a scapegoat. Plus it's easy to single players out rather than look at the big picture. The QB is the easiest player to single out and the most convenient scapegoat.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Fans love a scapegoat. Plus it's easy to single players out rather than look at the big picture. The QB is the easiest player to single out and the most convenient scapegoat.

I agree with you here. But, why is it then that in assessing Ramsey people look at his W-L record as evidence that he stinks? Apparently, according to Brunell fans, when our offense was suffering with Ramsey under center, it was all on Ramsey. And, when Brunell came in and our offense suffers people say, "it's the o-line" or "it's the wideouts."

The same can be said of Ramsey fans. When the offense is suffering when Brunell is in, it's all on Brunell.

I see so many people make excuses for both quarterbacks. Frankly, I'm tired of listening to people make this issue black and white, right and wrong....(i.e. Ramsey is the worst QB ever and Brunell is a God and vice-a-versa).