Should Brunell be replaced? (merged)

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

As for the rest of your nonesense, I could explain it over and over again but judging from some of those so called points it's obviously a big waste of time.

You could explain it if you had any idea what you're talking about, but from what most of us have seen, it appears that isn't the case.

So, go ahead and hate on the coach, hate on the quarterback, and hate on the team. I'm sure you'll be right in there with us, high fiving all of us and saying "Gibbs knew what he was doing all along" when this team is back on track.

This whole time, I have asked you, what proof do you have that Patrick Ramsey would be the better quarterback at this point. You have yet to provide the proof, other than what you think might would happen. And, my reply is, we don't go on maybes or would've, could've, should've, we go on what we know. What we know right now, is that this team is 7-6, which is a winning record. We know that this team is still in the hunt for a playoff spot - that is fact. We know that this team is playing a meaningful game against the Dallas Cowboys this Sunday - late in December. What part of any of those points are false or nonesense?

You have given nothing to justify pulling Mark Brunell at this point in the season, other than to harp on Brunell not throwing bombs every game. Brad Johnson didnt' throw bombs when he was with Tampa Bay, and they won the Super Bowl. A good quarterback has to be judged on more than his ability to throw a deep ball. The only thing you can come up with is that Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm than Mark Brunell. So freakin what? It takes more than a strong arm to play quarterback in this league.

Now, I am not denying that Mark Brunell has had a few bad games recently. However, in two of those games, our team still won. Which emphasis the fact that we win as a team, we lose as a team. This isn't golf. This isn't tennis. This is football. This is a team sport.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

You could explain it if you had any idea what you're talking about, but from what most of us have seen, it appears that isn't the case.

So, go ahead and hate on the coach, hate on the quarterback, and hate on the team. I'm sure you'll be right in there with us, high fiving all of us and saying "Gibbs knew what he was doing all along" when this team is back on track.

This whole time, I have asked you, what proof do you have that Patrick Ramsey would be the better quarterback at this point. You have yet to provide the proof, other than what you think might would happen. And, my reply is, we don't go on maybes or would've, could've, should've, we go on what we know. What we know right now, is that this team is 7-6, which is a winning record. We know that this team is still in the hunt for a playoff spot - that is fact. We know that this team is playing a meaningful game against the Dallas Cowboys this Sunday - late in December. What part of any of those points are false or nonesense?

You have given nothing to justify pulling Mark Brunell at this point in the season, other than to harp on Brunell not throwing bombs every game. Brad Johnson didnt' throw bombs when he was with Tampa Bay, and they won the Super Bowl. A good quarterback has to be judged on more than his ability to throw a deep ball. The only thing you can come up with is that Patrick Ramsey has a stronger arm than Mark Brunell. So freakin what? It takes more than a strong arm to play quarterback in this league.

Now, I am not denying that Mark Brunell has had a few bad games recently. However, in two of those games, our team still won. Which emphasis the fact that we win as a team, we lose as a team. This isn't golf. This isn't tennis. This is football. This is a team sport.

I will give it to you again please comprehend, Ramsey under the same conditions last season outplayed Brunell, that is why Gibbs named him the starter this season, in the opening game Ramsey threw for more yards in 1 quarter than Brunell did in 3 quarters, Ramsey's arm is much stronger than Brunells which has alway's been a big advantage in a Gibbs system [Joe always liked strong armed QB] although he seems to have been trying to reinvent himself this go round, he has a homerun hitting back rather than a power guy to grind it out, and a week armed QB in Brunell, who I might add Gibbs likes the fact that he can scramble even though through his first tenure he wanted his QB to stay in the pocket, not that I have a real problem with the philosophy of the above, but it doesn't seem he has been able to make all the adjustments for both the passing, and running game to become consistant, hopefully he will get there.

I wish I had more to go off of as far as proof that Ramsey would be an overall better choice for us at QB under Gibbs, but I can only go off of what I have seen which isn't a whole lot because obviously Ramsey hasen't seen the field much in Gibbs tenure, it's a talent judgement on my part. Even if he fails, how much worse would we really be, what has, and what is, Brunell doing to make believers out of all of us? Ramsey deserved the chance in the regular season to sink or swim, at least we would know where we stand with him by now, we may not needed to give up next years draft for yes another unproven QB out of college, that is the biggest risk Gibbs has taken in this whole QB controversy.

Do you deny that Ramsey outplayed Brunell last season under the same circumstances? Do you deny he threw for more yards in 1 quarter against the Bears this season than Brunell did in 3? Do YOU know for sure that Ramsey wouldn't be better than Brunell? Do you believe if Ramsey goes to a team like the Dolphins, Bucs, Bears, Boy's, next season he will fail? Because I believe where ever he is next year excluding us, he will succeed, but that is my opinion at this point, and only time will tell if I am right, or wrong on the evaluation.

Take a long look at what happened in both Giant games last season, under brunell we lose, under ramsey we crushed them, I do know circumstances can dictate wins and loses and they don't alway's tell the whole story, but we lose with Brunell, and crush them with Ramsey, that may be the strongest argument for ramsey.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

Do you deny that Ramsey outplayed Brunell last season under the same circumstances? Do you deny he threw for more yards in 1 quarter against the Bears this season than Brunell did in 3? Do YOU know for sure that Ramsey wouldn't be better than Brunell? Do you believe if Ramsey goes to a team like the Dolphins, Bucs, Bears, Boy's, next season he will fail? Because I believe where ever he is next year excluding us, he will succeed, but that is my opinion at this point, and only time will tell if I am right, or wrong on the evaluation.

It wasn't the same circumstances, Offiss. In what ways was it the same circumstance to you? What does the passing yards have to do with anything? You see, this is what I am trying to make you understand. You're going on what ifs and maybes, I am looking at this, strictly, from facts I've seen on the playing field. What if Heath Shuler stayed in another year? What if Joe Theismann had never broken his leg? What ifs don't mean anything to me Offiss. That is why when I focus on this Brunell/Ramsey debate, I look at our current situation as it stands right now, not what it COULD or COULD NOT be. That present situation has us in the playoff hunt and currently with a 7-6 record. Could we have a better record? Maybe or maybe not. Then again, it doesn't matter what we COULD or COULD NOT have, it's what we have right now, and 7-6 gives us a chance. 10-6 would get us in and if it didn't, 10-6 is a huge turn around from 6-10, so that means that Joe Gibbs and company is apparently doing something right.

Originally Posted by Offiss

Take a long look at what happened in both Giant games last season, under brunell we lose, under ramsey we crushed them, I do know circumstances can dictate wins and loses and they don't alway's tell the whole story, but we lose with Brunell, and crush them with Ramsey, that may be the strongest argument for ramsey.

Again, that was a different circumstance Offiss. Number one, that was last year. In this day and age of the NFL, teams can stink one year, and be Super Bowl champions the next (i.e. Rams, Bucs, Ravens, etc....) That Giants team last year didn't have the defense like it has this year. Thirdly, Eli Manning was a rookie last year. This year he came in having a year under his belt, and nobody saw him improving as vastly as he has this season. Lastly, in that first meeting with the Giants, Ramsey came in a threw at least three INTs, so I would say he was also guilty in the loss with the Giants - along with the REST OF THE TEAM. Again, you fail to see the fact that football is a team sport. Although the quarterback is hailed as the "driver" of the offense, he is just one player. It takes all the talent around him to make it work. We won in the past under Gibbs with less talented quarterbacks, because the team around the qb was built up to the best standard. That is why I have said, this team still lacks the ingredients to push it over the edge and become a great team. It's more than the quarterback position. Only amateurs blame wins and losses on the quarterback and coach alone, because it's easy to simply blame them.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Only amateurs blame wins and losses on the quarterback and coach alone, because it's easy to simply blame them.

I agree that a team's record reflects more on a team than a QB's play or a coach's coaching, but those two things have a lot to do with how a team fares. And, for the record, I guve Brunell and Gibbs a lot of credit for where we are.

You yourself pointed our that we're 7-6 and Gibbs should be given credit for that. Well, if Gibbs' is given credit for W's shouldn't he get some blame for L's?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

I agree that a team's record reflects more on a team than a QB's play or a coach's coaching, but those two things have a lot to do with how a team fares. And, for the record, I guve Brunell and Gibbs a lot of credit for where we are.

You yourself pointed our that we're 7-6 and Gibbs should be given credit for that. Well, if Gibbs' is given credit for W's shouldn't he get some blame for L's?

Of course, the coach should be blamed when it is his fault. There is also a time when it is the players' fault because of execution. Both are facts. But, that isn't the point I am trying to make Ramseyfan. The point I'm making is, with us being 7-6 and on a two game winning streak, there is no proof that Ramsey should replace Brunell. In situations like this, you're better off with the well experienced veteran in at QB.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Of course, the coach should be blamed when it is his fault. There is also a time when it is the players' fault because of execution. Both are facts. But, that isn't the point I am trying to make Ramseyfan. The point I'm making is, with us being 7-6 and on a two game winning streak, there is no proof that Ramsey should replace Brunell. In situations like this, you're better off with the well experienced veteran in at QB.

Okay. Well, I agree with that. Brunell is our QB and we're definately in the playoff hunt. We shouldn't change horses midstream.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

It wasn't the same circumstances, Offiss. In what ways was it the same circumstance to you? What does the passing yards have to do with anything? You see, this is what I am trying to make you understand. You're going on what ifs and maybes, I am looking at this, strictly, from facts I've seen on the playing field. What if Heath Shuler stayed in another year? What if Joe Theismann had never broken his leg? What ifs don't mean anything to me Offiss. That is why when I focus on this Brunell/Ramsey debate, I look at our current situation as it stands right now, not what it COULD or COULD NOT be. That present situation has us in the playoff hunt and currently with a 7-6 record. Could we have a better record? Maybe or maybe not. Then again, it doesn't matter what we COULD or COULD NOT have, it's what we have right now, and 7-6 gives us a chance. 10-6 would get us in and if it didn't, 10-6 is a huge turn around from 6-10, so that means that Joe Gibbs and company is apparently doing something right.




Again, that was a different circumstance Offiss. Number one, that was last year. In this day and age of the NFL, teams can stink one year, and be Super Bowl champions the next (i.e. Rams, Bucs, Ravens, etc....) That Giants team last year didn't have the defense like it has this year. Thirdly, Eli Manning was a rookie last year. This year he came in having a year under his belt, and nobody saw him improving as vastly as he has this season. Lastly, in that first meeting with the Giants, Ramsey came in a threw at least three INTs, so I would say he was also guilty in the loss with the Giants - along with the REST OF THE TEAM. Again, you fail to see the fact that football is a team sport. Although the quarterback is hailed as the "driver" of the offense, he is just one player. It takes all the talent around him to make it work. We won in the past under Gibbs with less talented quarterbacks, because the team around the qb was built up to the best standard. That is why I have said, this team still lacks the ingredients to push it over the edge and become a great team. It's more than the quarterback position. Only amateurs blame wins and losses on the quarterback and coach alone, because it's easy to simply blame them.

OK, for the last time, I really don't know how else to help you comprehend this because it seems to me your really not paying attention to what has been written. Now, how do you figure that 2 different QB's playing in the same offense, in the same season is different circumstances as far as a comparison between the 2??????? How do you figure that the same 2 QB's in the same game, [bears] with the same personel, is different circumstances????

Oh and by the way Ramsey faced the tougher defenses last season!

That's funny how many SB's did Jay Schroeder win? Kind of ironic we won a SB after Gibbs yanked him. SAME CIRCUMSTANCES, same season, tell us who's fault was it that Gibbs had to make that change and why? I will tell you, Scroeders he wasen't getting the job done so he got the hook, the team was getting the job done but Jay wasen't, Did you know that Rypien was getting his walking papers if he didn't win the SB in 91' it was do or die, apparently the coach felt the team had been good enough to win but Rypiens inconsistancy was holding us back. There is a reason the QB is the highest drafted player every year as well as the highest paid player, he is the difference maker, and if he ain't? Get rid of him, and so far Brunell has not been a difference maker, we blew 3 games we had no buisness losing, he couldn't get 1 lowsey first down and seal those victories late in the game.

Yes only an amateur would believe that a QB and coach are not the 2 most important pieces to a football team, especially one who is acting GM, It's the QB's job to make plays, if your team is so good ala the Ravens a few years ago that you don't need a great QB then fine, don't give up the farm for 2 QB's in Brunell and Campbell, spend that money on players and draft picks to build a team that is not reliant on it's QB to win games for them.

I am curios what pieces to the puzzle do you think we need? Stick with the offensive side of the ball the defense has more than held it's own.

As far as I am concerned we have had the pieces, if you believe as many here do that our O-line coming into the season was maybe one of the best in the NFL, We have a bonified game breaker at WR in Moss, and I don't want to hear the Patten injury is hurting us Because we were losing before he was hurt, plenty of teams pass the ball very well and don't have any stars at WR, then you can add into the mix a 50 mil$ back in Portis who is already on his way to canton, so who's fault is it?


I guess I am to believe that the Raiders, Bucs, are more talented than us, or Simms and Collins are both better QB's than Brunell?



And try to follow along as I explain the giant scenerio for you, yes Brunell went out in the first game against the Giants, he dug us a big hole and did absolutly nothing on offense, Ramsey came in and was going up and down the field when the giants new we had to throw and if Gardner didn't drop an easy 5 yard TD Ramsey would have tied the game and wouldn't have had a 3rd INT, all the while not practicing with the first team in a new system, it was that game that everyone saw how our offense moved with ramsey in there and many started to change their minds about Brunell, ironic that Ramsey with some time under his belt blew out the Giants the second go round, Brunell was lucky to get a firstdown against the G-men.

You might want to decide who's fault it is that we sit a 7-6 because we have as much overall talent as anyone in the NFC.


No one saw Eli progressing so fast? What are you talking about? The Giants obviously did, and yes take a good look at what is called progrssion as a QB, add Big Ben to that mix as well, yes QB's who have an organazation committed to them can get better, it does happen, except if your name is Patrick Ramsey, then there is no way to progress, reagardless [as you have said SKINSGUY] whether or not he had a good team around him, yes Brunell fails and we have no talent around him, Ramsey doesn't recieve an opportunity to play with a better team this season and he's a failure and could never get better.

I will say it for the last time, Ramsey last season outplayed Brunell with the same team around him that Brunell had, and yes Ramsey had to face the eagles defense twice, and the steelers once, which were tougher than anything Brunell faced. That is why gibbs named him the starter for this season. Do you believe for one minute that if Brunell had outplayed Ramsey last season that Gibbs would have still given the job to Ramsey? Never happen. I now will sit back and allow this situation to unfold and wait till next season to see which QB does what, this argument is really fruitless so long as Ramsey is riding the pine. When ramsey finally gets a chance to play somewhere else [and rest assured he will] we will then know the answer to this controversy.

Lets just agree to disagree!

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

Lets just agree to disagree!

This about the smartest thing you said out of all that incoherent rambling.