Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey

[irish]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

What is there to joke about?

PR looked shaky all preseason, and Brunell looked sharp. I don't see how that can be disputed.

Gibbs was obviously looking/hoping for Ramsey to seal the deal in the offseason, take take the job and run with it. Can you say he really did that?

Of course Gibbs didn't have much confidence in him, despite the fact the majority of fans supported Gibbs' claim that Ramsey was the starter, I guarantee you in the back of our minds we were all concerned given Ramsey's mediocre showing during the preseason.

I love how people make it seem like Ramsey was tearing it up during the 1st half of the Bears game. He threw a pick and fumbled twice, to Gibbs he had seen enough and couple that with his unimpressive offseason, he made the quick hook.

The opportunity that presented itself that I was referring to was when Ramsey went down, that was all Gibbs needed to get Brunell back in.

PR did look shakey in the preseason and MB did look sharp but as many were saying, PR was playing against the starters and MB was playing against the scrubs. So comparisons were hard to make. I guess my point is that now every skins fan makes it sound like MB was the obvious choice to be the starter when all the signs showed otherwise. I also recall lots of people who are now saying PR is average and inconsistent in the past saying how he was the QB of the future. PR has the same stats now as he did when he was proclaimed the QB of the future (because he hasnt played at all to change them). So the only thing that changed is MB did the job and PR never got the cahnce because Gibbs didnt have confidence that he could.

For the record, I was not a PR fan (as you may remember my preseason prediction which was 3 week off), and I thought MB was washed up, so going into this season I thopught the skins were screwed at QB. I was only sort of correct.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by irish

PR did look shakey in the preseason and MB did look sharp but as many were saying, PR was playing against the starters and MB was playing against the scrubs. So comparisons were hard to make. I guess my point is that now every skins fan makes it sound like MB was the obvious choice to be the starter when all the signs showed otherwise. I also recall lots of people who are now saying PR is average and inconsistent in the past saying how he was the QB of the future. PR has the same stats now as he did when he was proclaimed the QB of the future (because he hasnt played at all to change them). So the only thing that changed is MB did the job and PR never got the cahnce because Gibbs didnt have confidence that he could.

For the record, I was not a PR fan (as you may remember my preseason prediction which was 3 week off), and I thought MB was washed up, so going into this season I thopught the skins were screwed at QB. I was only sort of correct.

I didn't mean to say Brunell was the obvious choice, I had my doubts just as I'm sure everyone else did when he first came in for the reasons you pointed out. He looked good against mostly backups in the preseason so the doubt was there that he could keep it going against starters.

[bigmarley4]

These scenarios we are talking about are far-fetched, to say the least. We can't afford to have MB around for 1-2 years while keeping PR and JC around and happy. We invested a #1 pick in JC, he is the future QB of this organization. He should definitely be the #2 guy next year, so he can take over the year after. In this day and age you just can't have your future QB waiting around 3-5 years to maybe have a shot at playing. Obviously that has worked for some QB's in the past (JT, Steve Young, Brad Johnson, etc) but the best QB's in the NFL have learned under fire. Peyton started his 1st year, as did Eli (halfway through). Brees started every year he has been in the NFL. Palmer sat one year behind Kitna before starting. Which top-tier QB's in the league sat for an extended amount of time (2+ yrs) before getting a chance to start?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by bigmarley4

These scenarios we are talking about are far-fetched, to say the least. We can't afford to have MB around for 1-2 years while keeping PR and JC around and happy. We invested a #1 pick in JC, he is the future QB of this organization. He should definitely be the #2 guy next year, so he can take over the year after. In this day and age you just can't have your future QB waiting around 3-5 years to maybe have a shot at playing. Obviously that has worked for some QB's in the past (JT, Steve Young, Brad Johnson, etc) but the best QB's in the NFL have learned under fire. Peyton started his 1st year, as did Eli (halfway through). Brees started every year he has been in the NFL. Palmer sat one year behind Kitna before starting. Which top-tier QB's in the league sat for an extended amount of time (2+ yrs) before getting a chance to start?

I totally agree with this. If Campbell isn't the #2 next year, then I think that sends a message to everyone that he is not developing as was hoped. Given his history as a first round pick that Gibbs traded a small farm for, and given that he's had a chance to be coached and watch Brunell, and given that the offensive line next year will be strong, I see absolutely positively no reason why he should not be capable of #2 status. I have heard nothing, NOTHING suggesting that he is having a hard time developing. Just because we haven't heard anything on the guy doesn't mean he's not coming along, after all, we've been pretty busy hearing all about things like Portis and Moss setting records, Arrington's discontent, and making the playoffs!

If Ramsey wants a different situation, Gibbs will accomodate him and trade him. Gibbs doesn't like to keep guys that don't want to be here. It's just that a better situation for Ramsey won't mean a clear cut starting job. It will mean a chance to compete with one other guy for the starting job, instead of competing with Brunell in the short term and Campbell in the long term.

[Daseal]

I still think the real QB market will be shown when Volek and SChaub's futures with TN and ATL are known.

[Schneed10]

Just overall, I think we shouldn't get our hopes up too high in what we'll get in return for Ramsey, despite what Mortensen says. As Redskin fans, I think a lot of us tend to think highly of PR and try to look at the times when he has flashed his potential and put up good games. But we seem to forget all the inconsistency, the holding onto the ball until a DE causes a fumble, the inability to scramble, and the deep-ball inaccuracy. Ramsey has not done anything in this league for any non-Redskin fan (or any non-Redskin GM) to believe he is the next QB for their team. He's very comparable to Joey Harrington in trade value, if you ask me. What would you trade for Joey Harrington to join your team? I don't know if I'd give a 3rd rounder.

If we get better than a 3rd rounder for Ramsey, that's gravy to me. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. But I'm not getting my hopes up, he just hasn't done enough in this league to warrant a big trade offer.

[amorentz]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Just overall, I think we shouldn't get our hopes up too high in what we'll get in return for Ramsey, despite what Mortensen says. As Redskin fans, I think a lot of us tend to think highly of PR and try to look at the times when he has flashed his potential and put up good games. But we seem to forget all the inconsistency, the holding onto the ball until a DE causes a fumble, the inability to scramble, and the deep-ball inaccuracy. Ramsey has not done anything in this league for any non-Redskin fan (or any non-Redskin GM) to believe he is the next QB for their team. He's very comparable to Joey Harrington in trade value, if you ask me. What would you trade for Joey Harrington to join your team? I don't know if I'd give a 3rd rounder.

If we get better than a 3rd rounder for Ramsey, that's gravy to me. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. But I'm not getting my hopes up, he just hasn't done enough in this league to warrant a big trade offer.

I would definitely agree with this sentiment...I remember a lot of excitement over what we would get for "former first round pick" Rod Gardner. What we got wasnt much, though it even though it later proved to be way too much!

Frankly, the rumors I heard about John Abraham consisted of Ramsey AND Arrington, and getting a #1 pick for Ramsey is nonsense in my opinion. A 3rd is what Im thinking, and my thought when starting this thread was that the Rivers/Brees issue might bump us up in the round or even into the 2nd...

[skinsguy]

Why do you guys constantly argue over this Brunell/Ramsey thing? How many times do we have to hear the same crap over and over again. Just accept the fact that Brunell is our starter, not Ramsey. We're in the playoffs and Brunell helped us to get there. Enjoy it. Be a Redskins fan first.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Why do you guys constantly argue over this Brunell/Ramsey thing? How many times do we have to hear the same crap over and over again. Just accept the fact that Brunell is our starter, not Ramsey. We're in the playoffs and Brunell helped us to get there. Enjoy it. Be a Redskins fan first.

You just don't understand Ramsey's incredible and limitless potential. We could be sitting at 16-0 if we didn't yank him.

Hell, we'd probably know the answer to Question #3 by now if he was playing.

For the Ramsey folks I'm just kidding around.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

You just don't understand Ramsey's incredible and limitless potential. We could be sitting at 16-0 if we didn't yank him.

Hell, we'd probably know the answer to Question #3 by now if he was playing.

For the Ramsey folks I'm just kidding around.

I think Patrick Ramsey actually created Sean Taylor from one of his ribs

[MTK]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I think Patrick Ramsey actually created Sean Taylor from one of his ribs

Ahhh now we're talkin!

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

I think Patrick Ramsey actually created Sean Taylor from one of his ribs

Sage wisdom

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Sage wisdom

Uh-oh now Sage Rosenfels is in the mix! LOL

Was he the original savior, or should I say Ramsey, by chance?

Perhaps another clue for Question #3? Hmmmmmm

[GB1]

I think it'll help Ramsey's value. And yes, I do think the Skins should trade him and start breaking in Campbell.

Looks like its the status quo in San Diego for 2006 - Brees the francised starting QB and Rivers the high-priced inexperienced backup. It's too bad for everyone here, cause Rivers deserves a chance to get OFF that bench! But did anyone see Rivers play that last game? well, he sure looked like a rookie. I just needs to play, but I seriously do not see him leading a team to the playoffs his first year.

[FRPLG]

What's wrong with keeping Ramsey around if he is willing to stay and be the backup? Some seem to think it is imperative that Campbell be elevated because he is the heir. Can't he be the heir to the heir? The argument that there are a bunch of successful QBs who started right away or in their second year has a pretty big loop hole. All the guys mentioned put together have won 0 SBs. In fact the only guy lately to have won a SB early was Brady and even then he didn't actually win the Super Bowl. Bledsoe did. Not that he wouldn't have also but he didn't so he doesn't get credit there. Look, all I care about is having a sound and complete solution at QB. To me that means a guy starting who can lead a team into the playoffs with a backup who can come in and do the same. Most teams don't have this. Most have two guys about the same though one might be a little better or just a little different in a way to fit the scheme better. But neither can be expected to lead them into the playoffs consistently. Other teams like the Colts have a great QB but they are dead in the water after that. How many teams have two guys they can trust to lead a team? I am not saying PR can lead us to the playoffs consistently but I am assuming he can for my argument. Or actually I am assuming the Skins think he can(same for Brunell). In that case I would think they'd like to keep him if possible while letting Campbell mature into a guy they can trust to lead them to the playoffs maybe 3 or 4 years from now. You'll never convince me that letting Campbell sit 3 years is going to prevent him from becoming good. There is a ton of evidence that QBs who sit and leanr become more complete and successful QBS in the long run. I know this is a different approach than just about every team takes now but there are only like two real successful teams over the last few years. The Pats and the Figgles. The Patriots by luck had this arrangement with Bledsoe and Brady initially and have been lucky enough since to keep Brady healthy and stay at the top. The Eagles never had two guys but were also lucky enough to keep McNabb healthy enough that having a good second stringer didn't keep them from being the best NFC team. Until now and look what happened. Maybe investing a ton at the qb position to create depth is the way to go to stay on top in the long run.