Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Dana87

Matty, I guess your not understanding my point. Once again I do not feel that Ramsey is worth a 1st round pick. Nor do I think Rivers is. But if someone is going to give you $10 for a dollar bill. It is a fair assumption that they should give me $10 for my dollar bill. After all your money is worth the same as mine. Hopfully that clears up my point a little.

I understand your point.

In a perfect world you would get a 1st rounder in return for Ramsey since that's what it cost us, but obviously this isn't a perfect world.

What did we get for Rod Gardner? A 6th rounder?

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I understand your point.

In a perfect world you would get a 1st rounder in return for Ramsey since that's what it cost us, but obviously this isn't a perfect world.

What did we get for Rod Gardner? A 6th rounder?

What's important to remember is that Ramsey was the last pick in round one. So even a 1% drop in his value puts his value at a #2 pick even in a perfect world. Also since Patrick was the last pick in round #1 it means that every other team in the league passed on him in round #1. So the league as a whole never even believed he was a 1st round pick at any point in his life. If the skins get anything more than a #3 they robbed somebody...and a #4 is more likely his value.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by celts32

What's important to remember is that Ramsey was the last pick in round one. So even a 1% drop in his value puts his value at a #2 pick even in a perfect world. Also since Patrick was the last pick in round #1 it means that every other team in the league passed on him in round #1. So the league as a whole never even believed he was a 1st round pick at any point in his life. If the skins get anything more than a #3 they robbed somebody...and a #4 is more likely his value.

Interesting, what round was Montana picked? How bout Rypien, how far did Marino drop, what about Brady? Not that Patrick will ever be any of those QB's, all though I believe he is far better than Rypien, the point is Ramsey showed serious potential under SS, basically everyone was saying if this guy gets some protection he's going to be real good, the only thing that has hurt him since is that a hall of fame coach has benched him, so everyone believes something is wrong with him.

Bottom line, only time will deciede this debate. But remember Brady was on the bench behind a lowsey QB in Bledsoe, but because he was a top pick and had a big name he played, guess what? The coach who many are considering one of the great coaches of all time, and who many believe has passed Parcells by on the elite coaching ranks in history WAS WRONG! Brady was a nobody, a 6th rd pick, and if it wasen't for an injury he may still be on that bench who knows? But we do know this, Brady is already an all time great and he was sitting behind the likes of Bledsoe!

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by offiss

Interesting, what round was Montana picked? How bout Rypien, how far did Marino drop, what about Brady? Not that Patrick will ever be any of those QB's, all though I believe he is far better than Rypien, the point is Ramsey showed serious potential under SS, basically everyone was saying if this guy gets some protection he's going to be real good, the only thing that has hurt him since is that a hall of fame coach has benched him, so everyone believes something is wrong with him.

Bottom line, only time will deciede this debate. But remember Brady was on the bench behind a lowsey QB in Bledsoe, but because he was a top pick and had a big name he played, guess what? The coach who many are considering one of the great coaches of all time, and who many believe has passed Parcells by on the elite coaching ranks in history WAS WRONG! Brady was a nobody, a 6th rd pick, and if it wasen't for an injury he may still be on that bench who knows? But we do know this, Brady is already an all time great and he was sitting behind the likes of Bledsoe!

The difference with all the QB's you mentioned is that, once they got their opportunity, they didn't sit back down. Ramsey has had ample opportunity and has shown strengths and weaknesses but has never exhiibited enough of the first make any coach say "DAMN - this kid's got 'IT'." This is not a slam on Ramsey and it is not saying he will never be that kind of QB, just that in his 4 years here he hasn't ever gone beyond potential greatness. Marino (who was a late round 1st draft pick) came in and never looked back, Montana & Brady the same.

As for trade value, are you seriously suggesting that we could get anything beyond a 3rd for Ramsey?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

The difference with all the QB's you mentioned is that, once they got their opportunity, they didn't sit back down. Ramsey has had ample opportunity and has shown strengths and weaknesses but has never exhiibited enough of the first make any coach say "DAMN - this kid's got 'IT'." This is not a slam on Ramsey and it is not saying he will never be that kind of QB, just that in his 4 years here he hasn't ever gone beyond potential greatness. Marino (who was a late round 1st draft pick) came in and never looked back, Montana & Brady the same.

As for trade value, are you seriously suggesting that we could get anything beyond a 3rd for Ramsey?

Defiently! If AJ Feeley can bring back a second so can Patrick.

I do believe those other QB's were put into much better circustances when they had their shot.

I wouldn't consider 1 quarter a fair assesment of Ramsey, We all know he outplayed Brunell the previous season, so after 1 quarter this past season he can't get the job done? Whoever thinks that's a fair opportunity can, I just hope you never run into that type of judgement in your life.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by offiss

Defiently! If AJ Feeley can bring back a second so can Patrick.

I do believe those other QB's were put into much better circustances when they had their shot.

I wouldn't consider 1 quarter a fair assesment of Ramsey, We all know he outplayed Brunell the previous season, so after 1 quarter this past season he can't get the job done? Whoever thinks that's a fair opportunity can, I just hope you never run into that type of judgement in your life.

Feeley went 4-1 down the stretch for a playoff team in '02, was young (as is Ramsey) and had 'upside' according to the experts.. It was also the perfect storm for that trade to happen.. Miami was desperate for a young QB with upside, Feeley had buzz surrounding him.. That trade has been roundly criticized because it was a huge bust for the Dolphins.. If anything that will hurt us in the potential trade market.. Ramsey has shown more negative traits than Feeley had when they hit the trade market..

[GoSkins!]

The bottom line is that Ramsey is a seasoned NFL QB who has shown an ability to win games as a starting QB. While he has made mistakes, he has also shown improvement with his touch on throws. His downside is his lack of mobilty and desire to force plays to happen.

I really believe that being in the starting role more would improve his problem with forcing plays. If we cant get a second round pick for him, from a business point of view, I can't see why we would trade him. I guess that I just think that a smart team would rather have a quality backup QB than a second round gamble on draft day.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Feeley went 4-1 down the stretch for a playoff team in '02, was young (as is Ramsey) and had 'upside' according to the experts.. It was also the perfect storm for that trade to happen.. Miami was desperate for a young QB with upside, Feeley had buzz surrounding him.. That trade has been roundly criticized because it was a huge bust for the Dolphins.. If anything that will hurt us in the potential trade market.. Ramsey has shown more negative traits than Feeley had when they hit the trade market..

It was probably the same experts who believe Ramsey can't play, because anyone with 2 eye's could see the guy was horrible, all he did was try to manage a game and not lose it as the rest of the team as a whole won it.

I laughed when that trade went down, it was so obvious that Feeley was the benefactor of being on a superior team. Just another case of someone evaluating a player because they saw his win lose record without looking at the circumstances that led to it, and whether or not those wins and loses stemmed directly from his play? Feeley was, and is, a joke of a QB, yet he commanded a #2, if we couldn't get a #2 for Ramsey at least, then I think we are foolish to trade him.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by offiss

Interesting, what round was Montana picked? How bout Rypien, how far did Marino drop, what about Brady? Not that Patrick will ever be any of those QB's, all though I believe he is far better than Rypien, the point is Ramsey showed serious potential under SS, basically everyone was saying if this guy gets some protection he's going to be real good, the only thing that has hurt him since is that a hall of fame coach has benched him, so everyone believes something is wrong with him.

Bottom line, only time will deciede this debate. But remember Brady was on the bench behind a lowsey QB in Bledsoe, but because he was a top pick and had a big name he played, guess what? The coach who many are considering one of the great coaches of all time, and who many believe has passed Parcells by on the elite coaching ranks in history WAS WRONG! Brady was a nobody, a 6th rd pick, and if it wasen't for an injury he may still be on that bench who knows? But we do know this, Brady is already an all time great and he was sitting behind the likes of Bledsoe!

The difference is that Brady has shown on the field to be worth much more than the 6th round pick he started as. Can anyone say the same for Patrick? It doesn't matter if he deservd to be benched or not. All that matters is that 4 years in he still has not established himself as a starter. And you don't think this lowers his value in other teams minds?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by celts32

What's important to remember is that Ramsey was the last pick in round one. So even a 1% drop in his value puts his value at a #2 pick even in a perfect world. Also since Patrick was the last pick in round #1 it means that every other team in the league passed on him in round #1. So the league as a whole never even believed he was a 1st round pick at any point in his life. If the skins get anything more than a #3 they robbed somebody...and a #4 is more likely his value.

I agree totally. The tendency for us as fans is to inflate the value of our players. (See the "Fergy" discussion for an example of another team's fans falling victim) If we get a 3rd rounder for Ramsey we should make for the hills of Mexico. Yaahhhh!