Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by offiss

It was probably the same experts who believe Ramsey can't play, because anyone with 2 eye's could see the guy was horrible, all he did was try to manage a game and not lose it as the rest of the team as a whole won it.

I laughed when that trade went down, it was so obvious that Feeley was the benefactor of being on a superior team. Just another case of someone evaluating a player because they saw his win lose record without looking at the circumstances that led to it, and whether or not those wins and loses stemmed directly from his play? Feeley was, and is, a joke of a QB, yet he commanded a #2, if we couldn't get a #2 for Ramsey at least, then I think we are foolish to trade him.

Ok, what's the alternative? Let's look at facts here and remove opinion from the equation.

Gibbs has done all he can (brought in 2 QB in 2 offseasons, immediately demoted Ramsey week 2, openly praised Campbell at the end of year presser while not even discussing Ramsey until questioned, didn't call him when Saunders was brought in but called Brunell and Campbell) to demostrate that he doens't believe Ramsey is the future at the position. Ramsey has said that he wants to play and he wants to start.

Is your suggestion that if the Redskins cannot get at least a 2nd round pick they should keep a player that they clearly have no intention of giving a chance to win the starting job?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Ok, what's the alternative? Let's look at facts here and remove opinion from the equation.

Gibbs has done all he can (brought in 2 QB in 2 offseasons, immediately demoted Ramsey week 2, openly praised Campbell at the end of year presser while not even discussing Ramsey until questioned, didn't call him when Saunders was brought in but called Brunell and Campbell) to demostrate that he doens't believe Ramsey is the future at the position. Ramsey has said that he wants to play and he wants to start.

Is your suggestion that if the Redskins cannot get at least a 2nd round pick they should keep a player that they clearly have no intention of giving a chance to win the starting job?

Let me ask you this, if Brunell goes down the last pre-season game, are you ready with a team who will be a serious super bowl contender, to have Campbell have to come in and lead this team to the big game?

The only thing Gibbs keeps saying about Campbell is that he is very accurate, I am sorry but if a QB is not very accurate in practice he has no buisness being a QB in any copasity on any major level in football. QB's have to be football smart and until he actually plays a real game we will have no clue whether he is or isn't, but even if he is it will take him a year to really come into his own, do we want to throw a season away under those circumstances? Especially for what everyone is stating a possible 3rd rd pick?

I have no doubt in my mind that we would be far better off next season under those circumstances that Ramsey can lead this team, and I have to believe that even the Brunell and Campbell supporters are going to have to agree with that under those circumstances, we all knew Campbell was a project when we drafted him, does anyone want to go into next season knowing Campbell is one hit away from being the man? Patrick has much more value to us as a backup, and I am one of the guys who would love to see him find a home somewhere else to get a fair shot, but I just don't htink it's a smart move for our team as a whole to leave ourselves exposed to a Brunell injury, and we all know he aint getting any younger, and Ramseys contract is very reasonable next season.


Back in the day I saw a similar scenerio with Gibbs, it surrounded Stan Humphries, for the life of me I couldn't understand why he wouldn't committ to him, when he was able to come in to play he looked IMO much better than Rypien, he had much more mobility than Rypien, and seemed to be a more instinctive QB, yet it alway's seemed Gibbs had it in for him, when Beathard went to the Chargers he immediatly went after Humphries and Humphries proved to be a very good QB leading a charger team that wasen't that good to a super bowl, I can say this, Rypien didn't have enough talent as a QB to lead that team to a SB, so Ramsey I believe is very capable of getting the job done, but theres no arguing Gibbs really does not like the guy.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by offiss

Humphries proved to be a very good QB leading a charger team that wasen't that good to a super bowl, I can say this, Rypien didn't have enough talent as a QB to lead that team to a SB, so Ramsey I believe is very capable of getting the job done, but theres no arguing Gibbs really does not like the guy.

Yeah, I guess being a Superbowl MVP is no indication that you could lead a talented team to the Superbowl. :yeahright

[offiss]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Yeah, I guess being a Superbowl MVP is no indication that you could lead a talented team to the Superbowl. :yeahright

Your point being???????????? :confused:

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by offiss

Let me ask you this, if Brunell goes down the last pre-season game, are you ready with a team who will be a serious super bowl contender, to have Campbell have to come in and lead this team to the big game?

The only thing Gibbs keeps saying about Campbell is that he is very accurate, I am sorry but if a QB is not very accurate in practice he has no buisness being a QB in any copasity on any major level in football. QB's have to be football smart and until he actually plays a real game we will have no clue whether he is or isn't, but even if he is it will take him a year to really come into his own, do we want to throw a season away under those circumstances? Especially for what everyone is stating a possible 3rd rd pick?

I have no doubt in my mind that we would be far better off next season under those circumstances that Ramsey can lead this team, and I have to believe that even the Brunell and Campbell supporters are going to have to agree with that under those circumstances, we all knew Campbell was a project when we drafted him, does anyone want to go into next season knowing Campbell is one hit away from being the man? Patrick has much more value to us as a backup, and I am one of the guys who would love to see him find a home somewhere else to get a fair shot, but I just don't htink it's a smart move for our team as a whole to leave ourselves exposed to a Brunell injury, and we all know he aint getting any younger, and Ramseys contract is very reasonable next season.


Back in the day I saw a similar scenerio with Gibbs, it surrounded Stan Humphries, for the life of me I couldn't understand why he wouldn't committ to him, when he was able to come in to play he looked IMO much better than Rypien, he had much more mobility than Rypien, and seemed to be a more instinctive QB, yet it alway's seemed Gibbs had it in for him, when Beathard went to the Chargers he immediatly went after Humphries and Humphries proved to be a very good QB leading a charger team that wasen't that good to a super bowl, I can say this, Rypien didn't have enough talent as a QB to lead that team to a SB, so Ramsey I believe is very capable of getting the job done, but theres no arguing Gibbs really does not like the guy.

You didn't answer the question, what's the alternative? From what you said, if the best offer we get in the offseason is a 3rd round pick we should hold on to a player that the coaching staff has no plans for and wants to be a starter somewhere and who is in the last year of his contract and will leave the following offseason for no compensation. Help me see the logic in that.

Am I completly comfortable with Campbell being one play away from being the starter, no. But I don't believe Ramsey is capable of leading the team to the Super Bowl in the same scenario either. I think the Redskins will bring in Todd Collins in the offseason (free agent, been with Saunders in KC for years) to be the #3 QB but in the case of an early season-ending injury to Brunell would be able to step in and run the offense if Campbell falls on his face.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

You didn't answer the question, what's the alternative? From what you said, if the best offer we get in the offseason is a 3rd round pick we should hold on to a player that the coaching staff has no plans for and wants to be a starter somewhere and who is in the last year of his contract and will leave the following offseason for no compensation. Help me see the logic in that.

Am I completly comfortable with Campbell being one play away from being the starter, no. But I don't believe Ramsey is capable of leading the team to the Super Bowl in the same scenario either. I think the Redskins will bring in Todd Collins in the offseason (free agent, been with Saunders in KC for years) to be the #3 QB but in the case of an early season-ending injury to Brunell would be able to step in and run the offense if Campbell falls on his face.

So your solution is todd collins? So you are admitting you have no faith in Campbell?

So we would be 1 play away from a player who has never gotten himself off the bench in Collins? So basically what you are saying is Ramsey can't do the job, but a journeyman backup can? Now I ask you what do you base that on???????????

So what if he leaves without compensation, who would want a useless QB anyway? According to you, he's not better than Todd Collins, explain to me why the Chiefs are willing to let a gem like that walk away without compensation?

It's not like we have been a drafting machine after the 1st rd anyway.

So basically I am to surmise that you believe that BIG TIME TODD COLLINS, and JASON I HAVE NEVER PLAYED A DOWN IN THE NFL CAMPBELL are better option's as the #2 than Ramsey?

No plans for Ramsey? Hasen't Gibbs said time and again how important Ramsey is to the Skins? He has stated many times that the second most important player on any team is the backup QB. Yea Todd Collins as our starter, WONDERFUL!

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by offiss

So your solution is todd collins? So you are admitting you have no faith in Campbell?

So we would be 1 play away from a player who has never gotten himself off the bench in Collins? So basically what you are saying is Ramsey can't do the job, but a journeyman backup can? Now I ask you what do you base that on???????????

So what if he leaves without compensation, who would want a useless QB anyway? According to you, he's not better than Todd Collins, explain to me why the Chiefs are willing to let a gem like that walk away without compensation?

It's not like we have been a drafting machine after the 1st rd anyway.

So basically I am to surmise that you believe that BIG TIME TODD COLLINS, and JASON I HAVE NEVER PLAYED A DOWN IN THE NFL CAMPBELL are better option's as the #2 than Ramsey?

No plans for Ramsey? Hasen't Gibbs said time and again how important Ramsey is to the Skins? He has stated many times that the second most important player on any team is the backup QB. Yea Todd Collins as our starter, WONDERFUL!

Wow, apparently reading isn't fundamental.. I said Collins would be able to step in IF CAMPBELL FALLS ON HIS FACE IN THE EVENT THAT BRUNELL WOULD BE LOST TO INJURY.. 2nd grade version, Brunell is the starter, Campbell the backup, Collins the #3.. :frusty:

That has nothing to do with lack of faith in Campbell.. Honestly, I don't think either Campbell, Ramsey or Collins can lead the team to a Super Bowl next season.. I never compared Ramsey to Collins or Campbell or even Brunell for that matter. I said earlier in the offseason that I didn't think Ramsey is going to be an effective starter in the NFL and this staff clearly doesn't trust or want him.. Assuming we sign Collins, if he never gets in a game that would be ideal since he'd be the #3 qb..

I firmly beleive that Ramsey will be somewhere else by draft day... I hope you are 100% right and we get at least a 2nd round pick for him.. I'm done talking about it until then..

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Wow, apparently reading isn't fundamental.. I said Collins would be able to step in IF CAMPBELL FALLS ON HIS FACE IN THE EVENT THAT BRUNELL WOULD BE LOST TO INJURY.. 2nd grade version, Brunell is the starter, Campbell the backup, Collins the #3.. :frusty:

That has nothing to do with lack of faith in Campbell.. Honestly, I don't think either Campbell, Ramsey or Collins can lead the team to a Super Bowl next season.. I never compared Ramsey to Collins or Campbell or even Brunell for that matter. I said earlier in the offseason that I didn't think Ramsey is going to be an effective starter in the NFL and this staff clearly doesn't trust or want him.. Assuming we sign Collins, if he never gets in a game that would be ideal since he'd be the #3 qb..

I firmly beleive that Ramsey will be somewhere else by draft day... I hope you are 100% right and we get at least a 2nd round pick for him.. I'm done talking about it until then..

Well here let me simplify things for you, why are you bringing a player in who you do not believe can lead this team to a SB if Brunell goes down? What is the sense? And so you obviously don't feel Campbell can get the job done, so where is your backup plan? I obviously believe that Ramsey can take us to a super bowl, so I have my backup plan set. You have admitted you don't believe in yours. So you have no lack of faith in Campbell? Yet you don't believe he is capable of leading us to a super bowl next season? Talk about a walking contradiction! Who then will lead us if Brunell goes down? he's obviously not on our roster, or in KC, so who?

Further more, yes you can say the staff doesn't want him, but if that were the case why has Gibbs kept him around for 2 years? It's no secret that he wanted out more than once, and yet Gibbs refused to trade him, or release him, Gibbs constantly states that he wants players who want to be redskins, well I do believe a request to be traded pretty much say's I don't want to be a redskin, and yet he's still here, I wonder why? Miami offered up a #2 pick for him and yet we didn't take it, you mean to tell me we couldn't have signed a Todd Collins clone off the waiver wire to backup Brunell the last 2 seasons? Thats a lowsey thing to do to Ramsey, stick him on the bench for 2 years while you draft a QB to take his place, all the while he could have traded him or released him knowing he wanted nothing to do with him, and signed a backup of Todd Collins magnitude until campbell is ready, whenever THAT may occur.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by offiss

Well here let me simplify things for you, why are you bringing a player in who you do not believe can lead this team to a SB if Brunell goes down? What is the sense? And so you obviously don't feel Campbell can get the job done, so where is your backup plan? I obviously believe that Ramsey can take us to a super bowl, so I have my backup plan set. You have admitted you don't believe in yours. So you have no lack of faith in Campbell? Yet you don't believe he is capable of leading us to a super bowl next season? Talk about a walking contradiction! Who then will lead us if Brunell goes down? he's obviously not on our roster, or in KC, so who?

Further more, yes you can say the staff doesn't want him, but if that were the case why has Gibbs kept him around for 2 years? It's no secret that he wanted out more than once, and yet Gibbs refused to trade him, or release him, Gibbs constantly states that he wants players who want to be redskins, well I do believe a request to be traded pretty much say's I don't want to be a redskin, and yet he's still here, I wonder why? Miami offered up a #2 pick for him and yet we didn't take it, you mean to tell me we couldn't have signed a Todd Collins clone off the waiver wire to backup Brunell the last 2 seasons? Thats a lowsey thing to do to Ramsey, stick him on the bench for 2 years while you draft a QB to take his place, all the while he could have traded him or released him knowing he wanted nothing to do with him, and signed a backup of Todd Collins magnitude until campbell is ready, whenever THAT may occur.

Ok, I'll answer question by question to try to clarify for you.. The only reason I suggested Collins is because he is familiar with the system, not to compete for the starting job and likely not even to play, and let me make this clear again, UNLESS BRUNELL IS INJURED AND CAMPBELL FALLS ON HIS FACE. Every team needs 3 QB. The whole 'magnitude of Todd Collins' & 'Todd Collins clone' is way off base.

I think, if pressed into action, Campbell can be effective and successful, but no I don't think he can lead the team to the Super Bowl next year. That being said, I don't think any qb can be expected to lead his team to glory after never playing a down in the NFL and being thrust into the position. Tom Brady & Kurt Warner did it, but it wasn't expected of them. If it happens, huge bonus for the Redskins, but I don't think many teams have a backup that will fit that bill.

Regarding the coaching decisions on Ramsey, I assume in the 1st offseason Gibbs and Co. wanted veteran leadership at the QB position and depth, therefore they kept both QB. Going into last offseason, based on the end of the '04 season they thought Ramsey was their starter. Obviously between then and the draft they felt that Campbell was a viable QB of the future and made the moves to go get him. When Ramsey was demoted and requested out, the front office made the decision to not trade your backup QB during the season with a 34 yr old starter and a rookie backup, a wise decision IMO.

BTW, http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=15239