Fahrenheit 9/11

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Matty,

I strongly disagree with your statement that the media is one-sided. The media is one-dimensional in the sense that they sensationalize, obscure facts to make a compelling story, oversimplify everything, and generally appeal to the lowest common denominator, but they are far from one-sided.

Fox news is unquestionably conservative, but the rest of the "mainstream" TV media is very, very liberal. Bush is strongly disliked by just about everyone in the media. Just about every TV anchor and TV producer supports democrats. Op-ed pieces in the NY Times, Washington Post, and LA Times (arguably the three big newspapers) always endorse democratic candidates in presidential and congressional races. Talk radio is unquestionably conservative. Hollywood is very, very liberal. So, I'm not sure how you can say that the media is one sided (conservative or liberal).

As for Michael Moore, I'm going to see his latest since he's entertaining. I liked Roger and Me and Bowling for Columbine, so I'll see F9/11. However, I'm going to take his film as entertainment and nothing more. He does not make bold faced lies; he makes misleading insinuations, exaggerates, cherry-picks the facts, oversimplifies the complex, and makes no effort to be objective (even if an objective approach leads him to an anti-war conclusion). In sum, he's just like President Bush.

For example, in Bowling for Columbine, do you remember the nuclear missile plant scene. HE was interviewing a man working at a missile plant and asked him where he thought Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris came about to use violence. The man, who had a missile behind him, said no. Funny stuff. But, what Moore didn't say was that the missile plant didn't produce ballistic missiles designed to deliver nukes; the missiles delivered sattelites to space.

Another example of how Moore misleads his audiences can be found in F9/11. Granted, I have not seen the movie, but I have seen interviews in which he discusses the movie. He goes to great lengths to make some insinuation that because the Bush Administratin had links to the Bin laden family. What the fuck does that mean? Is he saying that Bush wanted 9/11 to happen? Is he saying he was in cohoots with Osama? OF course not. Instead, he tries to make the audience associate Bush with Bin Laden. What he doesn't mention is that it was Dick Clarke, who Moore calls an American hero, was the man who ordered the Bin Laden family out of the country. Does Moore think Dick Clarke was "in on a conspiracy?" Then why is he an American hero after he attacks Bush? Clarke was an anti-terrorism expert. Do you think Clarke was an Al Qaeda operative?

Moreover, Moore made no mention that all 135 Saudis who were allowed to leave the country were checked to see if they were on any terrorist watchlist. Moreover 30 of the 135 Saudis were interviewed by FBI agents.

Also, Moore fails to mention how big the Bin laden family is. Osama is one of what, 40 siblings? Also, the Bin Laden family is perhaps the most influential family, outside of the royals, in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, anyone doing business in Saudi Arabia is likely to deal with the Bin Ladens, in one capacity or another, at some point. Finally, the Bin Laden family has publicly repudiated Osama's activities. Some of the "Evil" Bin Ladens the Bush administration, or actually Dick Clarke, let out of the country were respected members of the Harvard community who donated millions to the school.

Moore's funny, not politically astute, honest, or objective.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

Another example of how Moore misleads his audiences can be found in F9/11. Granted, I have not seen the movie, but I have seen interviews in which he discusses the movie. He goes to great lengths to make some insinuation that because the Bush Administratin had links to the Bin laden family. What the fuck does that mean? Is he saying that Bush wanted 9/11 to happen? Is he saying he was in cohoots with Osama? OF course not. Instead, he tries to make the audience associate Bush with Bin Laden. What he doesn't mention is that it was Dick Clarke, who Moore calls an American hero, was the man who ordered the Bin Laden family out of the country. Does Moore think Dick Clarke was "in on a conspiracy?" Then why is he an American hero after he attacks Bush? Clarke was an anti-terrorism expert. Do you think Clarke was an Al Qaeda operative?

The Bush and Bin Laden families have an undeniably strong relationship. It's been well documented in several publications. One of the better reads being here, I highly suggest this book. Moore isn't "trying" to associate Bush with the Bin Laden family, he's only pointing out the obvious.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...833522-5234212

[MTK]

I find it kinda funny how quickly we turned our attention away from Bin Laden and instead went after Saddam, despite the fact we have never found any weapons of mass destruction.

The truth is we'll never find Bin Laden, why? Because we're not trying to.

So where are these weapons that Saddam had anyway? Weren't they a huge reason we went in there in the first place? So now that we can't find them (because they didn't have any to start with) we instead hear the administration write it off with excuses, 'well, the world is a safer place now that Saddam is out'. Is it really though?? Anti-american sentiment is more heated than ever. The middle east is still a war zone, americans are still being killed, beheaded, etc. 911 was this administrations' perfect excuse to invade Iraq so baby bush could seek revenge for his daddy. He wanted to go in there before 911, so this was a convenient reason to justify it.

Bush is dragging the U.S. down the crapper. I really don't understand people that can stand by and support this buffoon.

Did anyone catch it when Bush totally butchered trying to pronounce 'Abu Ghraib'??

Just embarrassing, man. Totally embarrassing that this is the leader of the free world.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I have no doubt that Bush is a poor President. However, the more the rest of the world talks about how Bush is stupid, and how Americans are dumb for supporting him, the less likely I am to vote for Kerry.

I especially hate it when Europe lectures us about how we lecture others and are too arrogant. The Europeans talk about liberty, freedom, and how they are against American Imperialism. Yeah, they are ones to talk. France has no business lecturing us about how to treat the rest of the world. France pissed on North Africa and Indochina for so long, I don't think they have the right to tell us shit. Their occupation forces were far less gentle than ours are (and ours aren't always nice).

Everytime some moron in Paris waves a Communist flag or Palestinian flag whenever Bush goes to Europe, I want to contribute some extra dollars to Bush 2004.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I find it kinda funny how quickly we turned our attention away from Bin Laden and instead went after Saddam, despite the fact we have never found any weapons of mass destruction.

The truth is we'll never find Bin Laden, why? Because we're not trying to.

So where are these weapons that Saddam had anyway? Weren't they a huge reason we went in there in the first place? So now that we can't find them (because they didn't have any to start with) we instead hear the administration write it off with excuses, 'well, the world is a safer place now that Saddam is out'. Is it really though?? Anti-american sentiment is more heated than ever. The middle east is still a war zone, americans are still being killed, beheaded, etc. 911 was this administrations' perfect excuse to invade Iraq so baby bush could seek revenge for his daddy. He wanted to go in there before 911, so this was a convenient reason to justify it.

Bush is dragging the U.S. down the crapper. I really don't understand people that can stand by and support this buffoon.

Did anyone catch it when Bush totally butchered trying to pronounce 'Abu Ghraib'??

Just embarrassing, man. Totally embarrassing that this is the leader of the free world.

We are not safer with Sadam out of power? How do you no? What did we do to Bin Laden to force him to take down the WTC's? The fact is we have found chemical weapon's, although not in mass quantity, you don't think he shipped out his mobile weopon's development program's into neighboring countries? If he had nothing, why did he deny the inspector's access during the Clinton regime? If he had nothing to hide he could have maintained power over his country, so he gave it all up over nothing? He refused access because there was nothing there? The fact is we will alway's have enemies, we just eliminated one very dangerous one.

If you believe that Sadam having been left to himself, wouldn't develope some kind of WOMD to detonate on american soil, if givin the opportunity, your only fooling yourself.

The fact is, we were attacked 2 times under Clinton, once on our soil, and he didn't do a thing, and no sooner does he leave office we get hit with 9/11, it seem's doing nothing is more harmful to America, then meeting the enemy head on. At last check we haven't been attacked since 9/11, but Bush isn't getting the job done? I say no new's is good new's!

I sure hope Gibb's doesn't adhere to that kind of thinking during away games, we would't want to make the home crowd angry by beating them, would we?

[MTK]

Why is Moore not allowed to make money off his work? That somehow discounts what he does? Because he makes a living off it?? I've never understood that arguement.

So is he somehow worse than some rich CEO who doesn't give two shits about his employees and moves operations out of the US and deserts the community that helped make him successful?

At least Moore is out there trying to be part of the solution. I just don't understand the excuse that Moore is somehow in the wrong because he makes money.

That's always the two cracks on Moore I hear from people who are against him. They either crack on his weight or the fact he makes money from his work. Both excuses are pretty lame in my book.

Moore's profits are nothing compared to what US corperations stand to make off the rebuilding of Iraq. That's the real crime. And meanwhile we the taxpayers will be picking up the war tab for generations to come, while the corporations will profit and on top of that, not pay taxes.

[skinsfanthru&thru]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Why is Moore not allowed to make money off his work? That somehow discounts what he does? Because he makes a living off it?? I've never understood that arguement.

So is he somehow worse than some rich CEO who doesn't give two shits about his employees and moves operations out of the US and deserts the community that helped make him successful?

At least Moore is out there trying to be part of the solution. I just don't understand the excuse that Moore is somehow in the wrong because he makes money.

That's always the two cracks on Moore I hear from people who are against him. They either crack on his weight or the fact he makes money from his work. Both excuses are pretty lame in my book.

Moore's profits are nothing compared to what US corperations stand to make off the rebuilding of Iraq. That's the real crime. And meanwhile we the taxpayers will be picking up the war tab for generations to come, while the corporations will profit and on top of that, not pay taxes.

making money off the misfortunes of others is wrong no matter who's profitting from it. and how is perpetuating the rift between the two main political parties a solution?
and we turned our attention away to a degree from bin laden because saddam was more accesible. plus we don't know with a 100% certainty that bin laden is still alive.
and yes some us corperations r going to make money from the rebuilding of iraq but so will some european nations as well and allowing the iraqi people to finally control their most valuable oil exports will not only help the us but the entire world against the oil strangle hold OPEC holds over the world. people talk about Bush being a oil hungry "tyrannt" and that may be so to an extent but he's nothing compared to OPEC.
I'd like to know when it was exactly that europe as a collective started hating the us. the hatred/jealousy was there before the latest war in iraq 2. That entire continent would be under one flag if it wasn't for what our country did for them both finacelly and militarily. As u said ramseyfan the British and the french as well as the spainards have no room to preach on the etiquite of imperalism.
right now our country is seen in a bad light by the world mostly because of our current administration, but I have honestly seen or heard nothing from kerry that tells me we'll be any better under an administration lead by him.

[That Guy]

Did anyone catch it when Bush totally butchered trying to pronounce 'Abu Ghraib'??

Just embarrassing, man. Totally embarrassing that this is the leader of the free world.

he should be voted out cause he stumbled on a couple words?

and war profiteering is bad no matter who does it. the corps however are doing a job that they were asked to do and needs to be done, not shoving divisive tragedy in our face at 10$ a pop. I really don't see how moore is trying to be part of the solution though... is he giving money to charity? again, did he offer any solutions at all? or just a lot of complaining that bush sucks and everything he does is wrong?

if you think corporations don't pay taxes, uhh... you're a bit wrong and if you don't like outsourcing, then don't buy from walmart... the reason the jobs move overseas is cause the american public wants things cheap, and the price pressure to remain competitive is pretty high. It's cause we're victims of our own high cost of living.

and you mention how much the contractors are making... its because a few years ago people thought downsizing the military would be a good thing... so now it costs up to 10x as much to get private contractors to do the same work that the military would normally be doing. If we hadn't downsized the military, we could stay deployed for 30 more years and still be ahead at this point. At the time congress and others felt it'd be a good idea, in hindsight, its wasting a lot of money.

as far as WMD, they've found some chemical crap buried under sand, and they may have been TRYING to make nukes, but they didn't have any that i'm aware of, and i do think bush did probably have a little bit of a revenge/crusade idea going, but i doubt that was the main reason.

the bin laden family is NOT = to osama bin laden btw, that's like saying you're going to shoot up a school cause some other american did.

[That Guy]

I'd also like to say the our first amendment and the sensationalist news America broadcasts is one of the main feeders of anti-american sentiment. I know people in germany during the whole east coast-west coast rap deal that thought it was a bloody civil war. Some others i've talked to in sweden thought that all americans were like the (scripted) ones they saw on jerry springer.

and again, having an open mind is hard, because it means that you can be wrong... that doesn't sit well with most. matty, you seem to be a bit on the defensive, just know that i'm not aiming anything at you, just airing my thoughts and seeing where they go

[MTK]

Of course I'm on the defensive, I'm defending my views just like everyone else is doing.

I'm always open to other's opinions, as wrong as they may be. LOL

This is why I usually shy away from political discussions. It's best to just agree to disagree and leave it at that. My views aren't going to convince anyone else and vice versa.

I'd much rather discuss football anyway. Discussing politics only brings my blood to a boil.

[JWsleep]

Well, Matty, it's good that we're holding this discussion out in the "parking lot"!

I actually think this is one of the more civil discussions of F-911 I've seen. Try watching FOX! LOL

Keep it up Matty. Defense wins championships, so how bad can being on the defensive be?

[Daseal]

It seems to be conservatives get super defensive when Moore's name pops up. Maybe because he shows everything they don't want to see, and the conservatives don't have anyone on their side willing to be a propaganda machine.

I also noticed someone said earlier if we want a new President than we should vote the current one out. Problem is, a majority of Americans didn't feel he was fit for the job, but he got it anyways. Thank you Supreme Court.

[That Guy]

The supreme court didn't have the power to decide the outcome, only oversee how the voting was carried out, by that time, there wasn't much to do. The electoral system isn't set up for a true popular vote, and you can write in to try and change that, but its not really broken (at least not enough) that anyone is going to care to fix it.

and believe it or not, moore's shown me absolutely nothing i haven't already seen (damn intarweb), sorry to disappoint

I'm always open to other's opinions, as wrong as they may be. LOL

and even though that may be in jest, i figure its actually pretty true of most people, cause meanful discussion take a very long time, and its just too much of a hassle for most, so everyone's content to shake fists and go their own ways

I really haven't been on the defensive either, i've just been asking, how would moore FIX the problem besides bitching about them? What kind of specific solutions did F911 offer besides a generic ditch bush?
No ones bothered to respond to either of those yet though...

[That Guy]

I think the big problem is that he completely ignores any side to the arguement except his own, and that's why he gets so much ire. He went around asking congressmen to sign their kids up for war, and besides the fact THAT YOU CANT SIGN OTHER PEOPLE UP FOR SERVICE, a few said they did have kids over in iraq (and they conviently got edited out of the movie) among other gimmicks. He doesn't actually say anything untruthful, but his selection of facts is very one sided and misleading, trying to play on people's ignorance.

If I were to quote ann coultier or rush limbaugh/O'reilly, i'm sure you'd shoot it down for the same reason, its one sided biased crap that doesn't really have anything new to say. There's also http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/ which is actually a look at moore's claims and responses to them.

btw, i'm not voting for kerry or bush, i don't like either one... they both kinda suck in their own way so i'll probably throw it away on mccain(R) - sen. arizona or eliot spitzer(D) AG - NY (because i believe they both care more about issues than platforms).

[Daseal]

The solution Moore is trying to put on the table is a new President. He, and many other Americans feel that this is the best way to help ourselves, especially in the foreign policy field. Something which Bush sorely lacks.