Skins officially pick Rocky McIntosh

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

how you get good teams is by covering your bases in FA and drafting the best talent you can use. not overpaying for one player when guys that can also be better quality starters for you are also available. we still need DB and OL depth, those needs didn't magically disappear because we took an OLB.

jon alston also fits your list of needs of being smart and fast.

in order to maximize talent, you have to have more than one player you can live with.

you think the eagles thought they'd get bunkley or justice without an expensive trade? no, but they got both anyways, which can be solid starters for them for 10 years.

trying to jusitify our pick post-draft doesn't have to include bashing the maximizing of talent as wrong, even if the skins choose not to do it.

"Maximizing talent" is a useless strategy if you determine that a certain player's talents aren't a good fit for the way you play football. In today's NFL when players often leave a team after 3 or 4 years, the player you pick needs to fit into your system quickly. They need to be teachable first and foremost. Their skill sets need to fit your schemes. You can't do something ridiculous like drafting Jimmy Williams, playing him at safety, and moving Adam Archuleta to LB.

The draft is not about "maximizing talent." It's about players that can help your team maximize performance as a unit. Talent (as determined by the media) is not always the driver behind performance. You need fit first. Talent is secondary to fit.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

"Maximizing talent" is a useless strategy if you determine that a certain player's talents aren't a good fit for the way you play football. In today's NFL when players often leave a team after 3 or 4 years, the player you pick needs to fit into your system quickly. They need to be teachable first and foremost. Their skill sets need to fit your schemes. You can't do something ridiculous like drafting Jimmy Williams, playing him at safety, and moving Adam Archuleta to LB.

The draft is not about "maximizing talent." It's about players that can help your team maximize performance as a unit. Talent (as determined by the media) is not always the driver behind performance. You need fit first. Talent is secondary to fit.

that was a joke you OBVIOUSLY didn't get, since that's the second you've referenced it like that. where did i argue that finding players to fit your system is a bad thing? I've just said that flexibility in drafting is key, which for some reason you've taken up arms against.

I never said anything bad about mcintosh as a player and i'm not the only one that hated the price.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

that was a joke you OBVIOUSLY didn't get, since that's the second you've referenced it like that. where did i argue that finding players to fit your system is a bad thing? I've just said that flexibility in drafting is key, which for some reason you've taken up arms against.

I never said anything bad about mcintosh as a player and i'm not the only one that hated the price.

OK fair enough, I've harped on the Archuleta thing enough. I guess I missed the sarcasm. Glad to hear you were kidding.

But as for the price, I don't see what all the fuss is about. According to this draft value chart the 35th pick is worth 550 points. The 53rd is worth 370, so we needed to pay an additional 180 points.

We gave up a 6th rounder this year, which is worth in the realm of 20 points or so. So we still needed to send 160 points to the Jets to make it fair. We sent a second round pick next year, which has the same value as a 3rd round pick this year. Third round picks in the latter half of the 3rd round (we're likely to be in the latter half of the round next year, we should have a winning team) are valued at right around 116-190. The price seems totally reasonable to me. I don't see why you're up in arms, That Guy. Aren't you the one who posts these draft value charts and stuff?

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

OK fair enough, I've harped on the Archuleta thing enough. I guess I missed the sarcasm. Glad to hear you were kidding.

But as for the price, I don't see what all the fuss is about. According to this draft value chart the 35th pick is worth 550 points. The 53rd is worth 370, so we needed to pay an additional 180 points.

We gave up a 6th rounder this year, which is worth in the realm of 20 points or so. So we still needed to send 160 points to the Jets to make it fair. We sent a second round pick next year, which has the same value as a 3rd round pick this year. Third round picks in the latter half of the 3rd round (we're likely to be in the latter half of the round next year, we should have a winning team) are valued at right around 116-190. The price seems totally reasonable to me. I don't see why you're up in arms, That Guy. Aren't you the one who posts these draft value charts and stuff?

what i meant was we could have taken him later on. gibbs got anxious though and the jets placed a call, so the deal was done. pointswise we made out, but the jets didn't care cause they got a pick or two and still got the player they wanted. value charts are used, but they don't match up to specific available players very well.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

what i meant was we could have taken him later on. gibbs got anxious though and the jets placed a call, so the deal was done. pointswise we made out, but the jets didn't care cause they got a pick or two and still got the player they wanted. value charts are used, but they don't match up to specific available players very well.

You think Rocky would have fallen to #53? What makes you say that? Why do you think he would have fallen that far? Did Mel Kiper have him falling that far? Did sportswriters think he'd fall that far? Based on what? Did you call around the league like Chris Mortensen and find out that nobody wanted McIntosh before #53?

This is my whole problem, That Guy. HOW DO YOU KNOW???

YOU DON'T. The attitude drives me nuts. You make blanket statements as if you know what the NFL GMs were thinking about Rocky McIntosh. You've done a lot of research, and that's great. But it's what the GMs are thinking that really matters.

Maybe he would have fallen. Maybe he wouldn't. We have no way of knowing. And no team who picked between 35 and 53 is going to come out and say "we wanted Rocky McIntosh" because then they'd just be pissing off the player they actually picked, making him think he was their backup plan.

Bottom line is Gibbs and Williams didn't want to chance it. They saw a run on LBs and they made sure to get their guy. Player value, schmayer value. Nobody knows if it was worth it. It's all speculation. We'll just have to see.

Chart-wise it was fair. If he's good, we got value. If he sucks, we didn't. We'll just have to wait and see.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

You think Rocky would have fallen to #53? What makes you say that? Why do you think he would have fallen that far? Did Mel Kiper have him falling that far? Did sportswriters think he'd fall that far? Based on what? Did you call around the league like Chris Mortensen and find out that nobody wanted McIntosh before #53?

This is my whole problem, That Guy. HOW DO YOU KNOW???

YOU DON'T. The attitude drives me nuts. You make blanket statements as if you know what the NFL GMs were thinking about Rocky McIntosh. You've done a lot of research, and that's great. But it's what the GMs are thinking that really matters.

Maybe he would have fallen. Maybe he wouldn't. We have no way of knowing. And no team who picked between 35 and 53 is going to come out and say "we wanted Rocky McIntosh" because then they'd just be pissing off the player they actually picked, making him think he was their backup plan.

Bottom line is Gibbs and Williams didn't want to chance it. They saw a run on LBs and they made sure to get their guy. Player value, schmayer value. Nobody knows if it was worth it. It's all speculation. We'll just have to see.

Chart-wise it was fair. If he's good, we got value. If he sucks, we didn't. We'll just have to wait and see.

please show me where i said he'd fall to 53? i, in fact, said i DIDN'T think he'd fall that far. nor did i ever say I knew where any specific player would go (outside of 1st round predictions).

In essence, we only targetted 2 players (fasano, mcintosh) that had any reasonable chance to fall to us and never considered trading down (judging on actions and who they brought in). that's what bugs me. a big expensive scouting staff and we bring in 3 guys we know we can't get without next year's 1st going down the tubes, and only 2 with realistic chances to fall to 53.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

please show me where i said he'd fall to 53? i, in fact, said i DIDN'T think he'd fall that far. nor did i ever say I knew where any specific player would go (outside of 1st round predictions).

In essence, we only targetted 2 players (fasano, mcintosh) that had any reasonable chance to fall to us and never considered trading down (judging on actions and who they brought in). that's what bugs me. a big expensive scouting staff and we bring in 3 guys we know we can't get without next year's 1st going down the tubes, and only 2 with realistic chances to fall to 53.

When you feel you're close to winning a championship and you think you just need one more piece of the puzzle, I applaud the move with a standing ovation. I don't understand why it would make sense to settle for multiple players when we only really need one really good one.

Hopefully Gibbs is right about McIntosh being that really good one to step in there and help. And hopefully he's right about us being close. At this point, I would rather have one playmaker at a need position rather than multiple players providing depth at other spots.

[EEich]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

You think Rocky would have fallen to #53? What makes you say that? Why do you think he would have fallen that far? Did Mel Kiper have him falling that far? Did sportswriters think he'd fall that far? Based on what? Did you call around the league like Chris Mortensen and find out that nobody wanted McIntosh before #53?

This is my whole problem, That Guy. HOW DO YOU KNOW???

YOU DON'T. The attitude drives me nuts. You make blanket statements as if you know what the NFL GMs were thinking about Rocky McIntosh. You've done a lot of research, and that's great. But it's what the GMs are thinking that really matters.

Maybe he would have fallen. Maybe he wouldn't. We have no way of knowing. And no team who picked between 35 and 53 is going to come out and say "we wanted Rocky McIntosh" because then they'd just be pissing off the player they actually picked, making him think he was their backup plan.

Bottom line is Gibbs and Williams didn't want to chance it. They saw a run on LBs and they made sure to get their guy. Player value, schmayer value. Nobody knows if it was worth it. It's all speculation. We'll just have to see.

Chart-wise it was fair. If he's good, we got value. If he sucks, we didn't. We'll just have to wait and see.

The Redskins FO believed that he'd be gone, or they wouldn't have made the trade. It's an educated guess that I would have a tendency to believe. They looked at the teams still ahead of them in draft order and estimated their likelyhood of taking a LB... Rocky and Hodge were the next in line to go.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by EEich

The Redskins FO believed that he'd be gone, or they wouldn't have made the trade. It's an educated guess that I would have a tendency to believe. They looked at the teams still ahead of them in draft order and estimated their likelyhood of taking a LB... Rocky and Hodge were the next in line to go.

hodge didn't go till well into round 3.

[hooskins]

One thing that I think is a non factor, is the Wonderlic. I am glad that he isnt a complete idiot, like the rest of the players in the NFL, and got a 29, but seriously that test doesnt really say much. I have taken one for kicks, and it is so easy and boring it becomes difficult to focus while you take it; thats how bad it is. And come on McNabb got a terrible score on that test, and he is one of the better QBs out there. That throws away the fact that a qb "needs" to get 30-40 on that test. No written test can tell you how you perform on the field. Seriously the score really doesnt matter, unless you get low teens or single digits, and that means you have some other really big issues. I think getting a high score isnt that great either, and its especially not a good justification of Rocky. Now I do think its a great added bonus. The part I dont like is it almost seems that to Gibbs, Rocky's score was one of the major factors that affected the Skins choice.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by hooskins

One thing that I think is a non factor, is the Wonderlic. I am glad that he isnt a complete idiot, like the rest of the players in the NFL, and got a 29, but seriously that test doesnt really say much. I have taken one for kicks, and it is so easy and boring it becomes difficult to focus while you take it; thats how bad it is. And come on McNabb got a terrible score on that test, and he is one of the better QBs out there. That throws away the fact that a qb "needs" to get 30-40 on that test. No written test can tell you how you perform on the field. Seriously the score really doesnt matter, unless you get low teens or single digits, and that means you have some other really big issues. I think getting a high score isnt that great either, and its especially not a good justification of Rocky. Now I do think its a great added bonus. The part I dont like is it almost seems that to Gibbs, Rocky's score was one of the major factors that affected the Skins choice.

I think his 3 degree's from college show he's more intellligent (and focused) than his 29 on a wonderlic.

[hooskins]

Originally Posted by That Guy

I think his 3 degree's from college show he's more intellligent (and focused) than his 29 on a wonderlic.

I agree, but I still feel his degrees in criminology and english arent the hardest. But I do give him props, bc football does keep you busy. I guess my original point is Gibbs mentioned the Wonderlic numerous times, even more than his majors, so I am not talking about Rocky's intelligence, but more Gibbs focus on the Wonderlic as his tool of seeing that intelligence. It just made me feel nervous everytime he mentioned Rocky's wonderlic, as if it was an important very very factor.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

I think his 3 degree's from college show he's more intellligent (and focused) than his 29 on a wonderlic.

Now this I agree with. I don't think Gibbs relied on the Wonderlic. I think they interviewed him and grilled him with football questions. They met with him and got a feel for his football acumen. I don't think they relied solely on the wonderlic. It's just that Gibbs mentioned it in his presser, that's all.