Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

That's a pretty blanket statement there. You get what you pay for. If you are willing to spend the money on the better built American cars (and by American I'm talking about the big 3), you can certainly get the same value and reliabilty that you find in foreign counterparts. My parents have never purchased a foreign car in their lives and have never gotten less than 10 years out of any of their cars without any major mechanical problems. I have gone from one American car to the next for the last 13 years and have had no major problems. Saying they only last 5 years is something I commonly hear from foreign car buyers who, obviously, wouldn't really know if it was true since they are just buying foreign cars.

Maybe you've had bad luck with American cars? I don't know. But from my perspective I've not had this experience.

So to get an American car that is as good as a Japanese car we should simply just pay more?

Doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense to me.

When American companies can figure out how to make the same class vehicles at the same quality for the same value then people will buy them more. Plain and simple. I own one "American" car and one "foreign" car. My Tahoe is sweet but I gurantee that when the foreign companies start to take seriously making large size SUVs people will stop buying the top American models that currently dominate the market. As far as sedans the foreign cars simply are better vehicles for the price right now. I wish that weren't the case but it is. And it is totaly ridiculous to try and lay a guilt trip on people for buying foreign cars. We're not talking about a little money here. For most people buying a car is a major investment and simply put they should be able to buy exactly what they want and get the best car they can for their money. It isn't their fault that in any given class of cars the best are usally foreign. I don't blame a guy who makes 35,000 a year for buying an Accord rather than a Taurus. He can't afford to go blowing his money on an inferior product.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

So to get an American car that is as good as a Japanese car we should simply just pay more?

Doesn't make a whole lot of economic sense to me.

When American companies can figure out how to make the same class vehicles at the same quality for the same value then people will buy them more. Plain and simple. I own one "American" car and one "foreign" car. My Tahoe is sweet but I gurantee that when the foreign companies start to take seriously making large size SUVs people will stop buying the top American models that currently dominate the market. As far as sedans the foreign cars simply are better vehicles for the price right now. I wish that weren't the case but it is. And it is totaly ridiculous to try and lay a guilt trip on people for buying foreign cars. We're not talking about a little money here. For most people buying a car is a major investment and simply put they should be able to buy exactly what they want and get the best car they can for their money. It isn't their fault that in any given class of cars the best are usally foreign. I don't blame a guy who makes 35,000 a year for buying an Accord rather than a Taurus. He can't afford to go blowing his money on an inferior product.

You don't have to pay more to get a reliable Big3 vehicle.

How's the reliability been on your Tahoe so far? My cousin has a 2003 Suburban w/ the 5.3 (same as the Tahoe), and it has been a great vehicle. His girlfriend has put 80k+ miles on it in less than 3 years. Those GenIII motors are excellent. You should be able to easily get 250k out of that motor.

If properly maintained, American cars WILL last 200k+ miles. The key is routine maintenance.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

You don't have to pay more to get a reliable Big3 vehicle.

How's the reliability been on your Tahoe so far? My cousin has a 2003 Suburban w/ the 5.3 (same as the Tahoe), and it has been a great vehicle. His girlfriend has put 80k+ miles on it in less than 3 years. Those GenIII motors are excellent. You should be able to easily get 250k out of that motor.

If properly maintained, American cars WILL last 200k+ miles. The key is routine maintenance.

I am not saying that there are not some good American cars. ANd I am nto saying there aren't some bad Foreign cars. But when you look at every class of car (outside of SUVs) basically the foreign cars dominate the lists of the top quality and reliability. I just don't blame someone for buying foreign when the option is usually to buy an inferior American version in the same class or spend a little more for a higher class Amrican car.

I basically encourage people to figure out what they can afford and buy the best car they can get at that price. Foreign or American.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I am not saying that there are not some good American cars. ANd I am nto saying there aren't some bad Foreign cars. But when you look at every class of car (outside of SUVs) basically the foreign cars dominate the lists of the top quality and reliability. I just don't blame someone for buying foreign when the option is usually to buy an inferior American version in the same class or spend a little more for a higher class Amrican car.

Here's an interesting article with some facts that I bet you'll find suprising.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/01/23/...ars/index.html

Here is what sits in my driveway.
1987 Chevy Truck
2001 Honda Civic
2005 Toyota 4Runner
2006 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

So to get an American car that is as good as a Japanese car we should simply just pay more?

I never said that. What I'm saying is don't buy a $17,000 dodge neon and then bitch about it not lasting as long as a $23,000 camry. Dollar for dollar I disagree with the statement that American cars are somehow inferior. I don't know where everyone gets the impression that foreign cars are so cheap, but they're not. I'll grant you the Japanese have the market on compact cars. It's hard to argue against the Civic in terms of reliability for the price. But I challenge anyone to get more for their money than I got last year when I bought my 2005 Denali.

Another example: in 2001 I bought a Dodge Stratus R/T coupe with a 3.0L V6 (200 HP), 4 disc CD in the dash, premium Infinity sound system, sun roof, leather seats, 8-way power adjustable driver seat, 17" aluminum alloy wheels, 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes, integrated fog lamps, etc. I got all that in 2001 for $21,000 with 3.9% financing. A week or two ago I just traded it in. 5 years, 46k miles and I NEVER had a single problem with it. Nothing, in 5 years. I changed the breaks once, tires once, and the oil every 7,500 miles (because that's all it called for). What equivalent foreign car could I have gotten in terms of features, reliability, and performance for that kind of money in 2001?

When American companies can figure out how to make the same class vehicles at the same quality for the same value then people will buy them more. Plain and simple. I own one "American" car and one "foreign" car. My Tahoe is sweet but I gurantee that when the foreign companies start to take seriously making large size SUVs people will stop buying the top American models that currently dominate the market. As far as sedans the foreign cars simply are better vehicles for the price right now. I wish that weren't the case but it is. And it is totaly ridiculous to try and lay a guilt trip on people for buying foreign cars. We're not talking about a little money here. For most people buying a car is a major investment and simply put they should be able to buy exactly what they want and get the best car they can for their money. It isn't their fault that in any given class of cars the best are usally foreign. I don't blame a guy who makes 35,000 a year for buying an Accord rather than a Taurus. He can't afford to go blowing his money on an inferior product.

As for sedans and coupes, I would argue that an Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Pontiac G6, Pontiac GTO, Chevrolet Corvette, and Cadillac CTS all offer more than their foreign counterparts for less money. But this thread is more about getting Tafkas a new car, so I don't think we really need to get into a debate about specific cars, or this thread will likely turn into a 50 pager in no time.

And for the record, I never layed a guilt trip on anybody. To the extent you think I did, please show me where.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I never said that. What I'm saying is don't buy a $17,000 dodge neon and then bitch about it not lasting as long as a $23,000 camry. Dollar for dollar I disagree with the statement that American cars are somehow inferior. I don't know where everyone gets the impression that foreign cars are so cheap, but they're not. I'll grant you the Japanese have the market on compact cars. It's hard to argue against the Civic in terms of reliability for the price. But I challenge anyone to get more for their money than I got last year when I bought my 2005 Denali.

Another example: in 2001 I bought a Dodge Stratus R/T coupe with a 3.0L V6 (200 HP), 4 disc CD in the dash, premium Infinity sound system, sun roof, leather seats, 8-way power adjustable driver seat, 17" aluminum alloy wheels, 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes, integrated fog lamps, etc. I got all that in 2001 for $21,000 with 3.9% financing. A week or two ago I just traded it in. 5 years, 46k miles and I NEVER had a single problem with it. Nothing, in 5 years. I changed the breaks once, tires once, and the oil every 7,500 miles (because that's all it called for). What equivalent foreign car could I have gotten in terms of features, reliability, and performance for that kind of money in 2001?



As for sedans and coupes, I would argue that an Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Pontiac G6, Pontiac GTO, Chevrolet Corvette, and Cadillac CTS all offer more than their foreign counterparts for less money. But this thread is more about getting Tafkas a new car, so I don't think we really need to get into a debate about specific cars, or this thread will likely turn into a 50 pager in no time.

And for the record, I never layed a guilt trip on anybody. To the extent you think I did, please show me where.

I like how you are analyzing the costs/benefits of each car, because the price definitely has to enter the equation when you're talking about quality.

But be careful in your comparisons, a Dodge Neon (compact) is not the same class as a Toyota Camry (midsize sedan). If you're looking for the same-class comparison, go with the Neon and the Toyota Corrolla or Honda Civic.

The American models are often cheaper, but the quality isn't as good as the Japanese. I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it. None of the American cars you mentioned in that bolded section rank very high in terms of quality, and the Japanese makers are ahead according to just about every publication available. That is supported by Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, etcetera.

It's a given that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are better quality than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy. But you're right to question whether or not the extra money spent is worth it. That part comes down to individual perception.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it.

Of those cars that you bolded, there are several world class cars in there that are VERY high quality. I think your statement, and post in general, exemplifies the type of attitude that the CNN article above argues is unfounded.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

Of those cars that you bolded, there are several world class cars in there that are VERY high quality. I think your statement, and post in general, exemplifies the type of attitude that the CNN article above argues is unfounded.

The article states that it depends on whose survey you believe, first and foremost. Consumer Reports doesn't rate the American's nearly as highly, and there's a good reason.

But that's besides the point. Take a look at JD Power's survey ratings. Of course the American luxury brands should rank higher than any non-luxury brand. It makes sense, after all you're paying 20-40% more for the car when you buy a luxury model.

JD Power's Ratings (based on problems per 100 vehicles during first 3 years)
Lexus (luxury)
Lincoln (luxury)
Buick (luxury)
Cadillac (luxury)
Infiniti (luxury)
Toyota
Mercury
Honda
Acura (luxury)
Ford
Saturn
Chevy
Oldsmobile
GMC
Pontiac
Mazda
Subaru
Nissan
Mitsubishi
Suzuki
Isuzu

My other problem with JD Power's survey, it rates cars based on the first 3 years only. But everyone here will acknowledge that the Japanese makes do a lot better in the later years than the American makes. Consumer Reports has used car ratings which measure the life of cars over a greater period of time, and they have the Americans down a peg.

And did JD Power not even rate Hyundai??? The JD Power data is garbage in this case.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

My other problem with JD Power's survey, it rates cars based on the first 3 years only. But everyone here will acknowledge that the Japanese makes do a lot better in the later years than the American makes. Consumer Reports has used car ratings which measure the life of cars over a greater period of time, and they have the Americans down a peg.

I wouldn't acknowledge that. Like I said before, my parents have never kept a car for less than 10 years, and have never had major problems with their American cars. In fact, I can't wait to get around most older Japanese cars I get stuck behind because I can't stand the blue smoke from the burning oil that comes billowing out their tailpipes. Yet my best friend's 1985 Monte Carlo SS with the original engine and transmission and 150k+ miles doesn't do that. And my 1984 Cutlass Supreme with 120k+ never did that. And my wife's 1991 Lebaron Convertible with over 112k miles that we just sold didn't do it. I guess everyone's experiences are different.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I wouldn't acknowledge that. Like I said before, my parents have never kept a car for less than 10 years, and have never had major problems with their American cars. In fact, I can't wait to get around most older Japanese cars I get stuck behind because I can't stand the blue smoke from the burning oil that comes billowing out their tailpipes. Yet my best friend's 1985 Monte Carlo SS with the original engine and transmission and 150k+ miles doesn't do that. And my 1984 Cutlass Supreme with 120k+ never did that. And my wife's 1991 Lebaron Convertible with over 112k miles that we just sold didn't do it. I guess everyone's experiences are different.

Yeah you're kind of basing your judgments on anectdotal evidence you've witnessed, which isn't exactly scientific, nor is it a big enough sample size to pass any meaningful judgment.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I wouldn't acknowledge that. Like I said before, my parents have never kept a car for less than 10 years, and have never had major problems with their American cars. In fact, I can't wait to get around most older Japanese cars I get stuck behind because I can't stand the blue smoke from the burning oil that comes billowing out their tailpipes. Yet my best friend's 1985 Monte Carlo SS with the original engine and transmission and 150k+ miles doesn't do that. And my 1984 Cutlass Supreme with 120k+ never did that. And my wife's 1991 Lebaron Convertible with over 112k miles that we just sold didn't do it. I guess everyone's experiences are different.

And besides, right now you're mentioning cars that are friggin 20 years old. Nobody would buy a 1985 vehicle now. If you're serious about buying a car right now, you're talking about something from 2000 or later. Quality has changed a ton over the last 20 years.

Toyota and Honda have been pwning GM for the last five years in the ratings. Those are the relevant years to this discussion, since few would buy a car older than that.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I like how you are analyzing the costs/benefits of each car, because the price definitely has to enter the equation when you're talking about quality.

But be careful in your comparisons, a Dodge Neon (compact) is not the same class as a Toyota Camry (midsize sedan). If you're looking for the same-class comparison, go with the Neon and the Toyota Corrolla or Honda Civic.

But that's exactly my point. Too often foreign car buyers make blanket statements about "American cars" that might be supportable if they cite to cars like the Dodge Neon, Ford Escort, or Chevy Cavalier. I've conceeded that in that segment the Japanese have the edge. Basically I was warning about the same thing you mentioned here too: i.e. let's keep it apples to apples and not make broad generalizations.

The American models are often cheaper, but the quality isn't as good as the Japanese. I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it. None of the American cars you mentioned in that bolded section rank very high in terms of quality, and the Japanese makers are ahead according to just about every publication available. That is supported by Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, etcetera.

It's a given that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are better quality than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy. But you're right to question whether or not the extra money spent is worth it. That part comes down to individual perception.

Well, like I said, we could sit here and argue specifics, but I think you are discounting many of the cars I mentioned based on your own biases. The Covette consistently gets rave reviews for being one of the best performance cars in the world for the money. The Cadillac CTS isn't high in quality? I'd take serious issue with that. The Charger has gotten exceptional reviews for its bang-for-the-buck.

Really a lot of this comes down to personal preference. But my personal preference for American cars doesn't have me making broad statements about other foreign cars. I mean, personally, I wouldn't trade you my friend's lexus SUV for my Denali unless he threw in an extra 10 grand. Quality? I've ridden in it, it's an ok car. Overpriced for the money, lacks features, lacks power, and is fairly uninspiring. But again, that's just my preference.

My other friend's BMW 3 series? I dusted it with my old 2001 Stratus RT, and I had less problems with my car in 5 years than he had in 3 with his. Quality? Not from what we saw.

I think that's why cpayne's article was so on point to this discussion. Everyone just assumes that Acura, Honda, BMW and Toyota produce so much better cars than anything GM can put out, but it's just not true. To the extent you can point to lower quality lines like Chevy and Ford, and simply discount Caddillac, Lincoln, and Buick, I could easily point to Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan and discount Toyota and Honda. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as simple as Japan v. USA. There are way too many variations in "foreign" or even "Japanese" cars to simply say that they are better than "American" cars. You'd never catch me buying a Ford (no offense to anyone else), but you'd also never catch me buying a Mitsubishi.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I think that's why cpayne's article was so on point to this discussion. Everyone just assumes that Acura, Honda, BMW and Toyota produce so much better cars than anything GM can put out, but it's just not true. To the extent you can point to lower quality lines like Chevy and Ford, and simply discount Caddillac, Lincoln, and Buick, I could easily point to Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan and discount Toyota and Honda. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as simple as Japan v. USA. There are way too many variations in "foreign" or even "Japanese" cars to simply say that they are better than "American" cars. You'd never catch me buying a Ford (no offense to anyone else), but you'd also never catch me buying a Mitsubishi.

True.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

But that's exactly my point. Too often foreign car buyers make blanket statements about "American cars" that might be supportable if they cite to cars like the Dodge Neon, Ford Escort, or Chevy Cavalier. I've conceeded that in that segment the Japanese have the edge. Basically I was warning about the same thing you mentioned here too: i.e. let's keep it apples to apples and not make broad generalizations.



Well, like I said, we could sit here and argue specifics, but I think you are discounting many of the cars I mentioned based on your own biases. The Covette consistently gets rave reviews for being one of the best performance cars in the world for the money. The Cadillac CTS isn't high in quality? I'd take serious issue with that. The Charger has gotten exceptional reviews for its bang-for-the-buck.

Really a lot of this comes down to personal preference. But my personal preference for American cars doesn't have me making broad statements about other foreign cars. I mean, personally, I wouldn't trade you my friend's lexus SUV for my Denali unless he threw in an extra 10 grand. Quality? I've ridden in it, it's an ok car. Overpriced for the money, lacks features, lacks power, and is fairly uninspiring. But again, that's just my preference.

My other friend's BMW 3 series? I dusted it with my old 2001 Stratus RT, and I had less problems with my car in 5 years than he had in 3 with his. Quality? Not from what we saw.

I think that's why cpayne's article was so on point to this discussion. Everyone just assumes that Acura, Honda, BMW and Toyota produce so much better cars than anything GM can put out, but it's just not true. To the extent you can point to lower quality lines like Chevy and Ford, and simply discount Caddillac, Lincoln, and Buick, I could easily point to Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan and discount Toyota and Honda. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as simple as Japan v. USA. There are way too many variations in "foreign" or even "Japanese" cars to simply say that they are better than "American" cars. You'd never catch me buying a Ford (no offense to anyone else), but you'd also never catch me buying a Mitsubishi.

I agree that it comes down to personal preference a lot of the time. From what I can gather from your posts, you tend to judge quality based on the car's performance (engine strength, handling, feel etc) and your personal experience with it. I personally place a great deal of importance on crash tests and scientific surveys examining reliability for the long term.

In the end we're just looking at different things, I think. When I say quality, I'm thinking along the lines of how often is this thing going to break down or need repairs. To me, a car is simply something that can get me from point A to point B consistently, safely, affordably, and comfortably. I could care less what it looks like, how fast it accelerates, what color it is, etcetera.

There are American models which rate ahead of the Japanese, I don't mean to make a blanket statement saying all Japanese cars are better. So you definitely have to compare model to model. But in the end, there's a reason that the Toyota and Honda brands have a better reputation.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I agree that it comes down to personal preference a lot of the time. From what I can gather from your posts, you tend to judge quality based on the car's performance (engine strength, handling, feel etc) and your personal experience with it. I personally place a great deal of importance on crash tests and scientific surveys examining reliability for the long term.

In the end we're just looking at different things, I think. When I say quality, I'm thinking along the lines of how often is this thing going to break down or need repairs. To me, a car is simply something that can get me from point A to point B consistently, safely, affordably, and comfortably. I could care less what it looks like, how fast it accelerates, what color it is, etcetera.

There are American models which rate ahead of the Japanese, I don't mean to make a blanket statement saying all Japanese cars are better. So you definitely have to compare model to model. But in the end, there's a reason that the Toyota and Honda brands have a better reputation.

They have a reputation because people like you keep making these silly posts!

Actually I think you are right on mostly here. It really does come down to what's important and personal experiences. I've never had my American cars really let me down. If I had a ton of bad exeriences, I might be singing a different tune. And to me, performance is a really big deal. I simply can't drive a Camry with a 4 cylinder engine because my penis is just too small for that.......so I need something that can represent a bigger extension of my schwanger. I also have this road rage problem that mandates a faster car to either catch up to someone to flip them off or to get away from the wrong guy who I just flipped off.

Seriously though, I think my only real problem was people making blanket generalizations. I'm not going to sit here and tell people the Neon is a great car. But that doesn't mean the Cadillac CTS or Envoy or Charger or G6 can't be good either. Just like it'd be unfair to lable a suzuki or isuzu a great car just because it's japanese. If people want to make specific recommendations about specific cars they have some knowledge about, that's great.......but not at the expense of ripping an entire country's automobiles.