Sell Me A Car-What Should I Buy

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I never said that. What I'm saying is don't buy a $17,000 dodge neon and then bitch about it not lasting as long as a $23,000 camry. Dollar for dollar I disagree with the statement that American cars are somehow inferior. I don't know where everyone gets the impression that foreign cars are so cheap, but they're not. I'll grant you the Japanese have the market on compact cars. It's hard to argue against the Civic in terms of reliability for the price. But I challenge anyone to get more for their money than I got last year when I bought my 2005 Denali.

Another example: in 2001 I bought a Dodge Stratus R/T coupe with a 3.0L V6 (200 HP), 4 disc CD in the dash, premium Infinity sound system, sun roof, leather seats, 8-way power adjustable driver seat, 17" aluminum alloy wheels, 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes, integrated fog lamps, etc. I got all that in 2001 for $21,000 with 3.9% financing. A week or two ago I just traded it in. 5 years, 46k miles and I NEVER had a single problem with it. Nothing, in 5 years. I changed the breaks once, tires once, and the oil every 7,500 miles (because that's all it called for). What equivalent foreign car could I have gotten in terms of features, reliability, and performance for that kind of money in 2001?



As for sedans and coupes, I would argue that an Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, Pontiac G6, Pontiac GTO, Chevrolet Corvette, and Cadillac CTS all offer more than their foreign counterparts for less money. But this thread is more about getting Tafkas a new car, so I don't think we really need to get into a debate about specific cars, or this thread will likely turn into a 50 pager in no time.

And for the record, I never layed a guilt trip on anybody. To the extent you think I did, please show me where.

I like how you are analyzing the costs/benefits of each car, because the price definitely has to enter the equation when you're talking about quality.

But be careful in your comparisons, a Dodge Neon (compact) is not the same class as a Toyota Camry (midsize sedan). If you're looking for the same-class comparison, go with the Neon and the Toyota Corrolla or Honda Civic.

The American models are often cheaper, but the quality isn't as good as the Japanese. I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it. None of the American cars you mentioned in that bolded section rank very high in terms of quality, and the Japanese makers are ahead according to just about every publication available. That is supported by Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, etcetera.

It's a given that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are better quality than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy. But you're right to question whether or not the extra money spent is worth it. That part comes down to individual perception.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it.

Of those cars that you bolded, there are several world class cars in there that are VERY high quality. I think your statement, and post in general, exemplifies the type of attitude that the CNN article above argues is unfounded.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

Of those cars that you bolded, there are several world class cars in there that are VERY high quality. I think your statement, and post in general, exemplifies the type of attitude that the CNN article above argues is unfounded.

The article states that it depends on whose survey you believe, first and foremost. Consumer Reports doesn't rate the American's nearly as highly, and there's a good reason.

But that's besides the point. Take a look at JD Power's survey ratings. Of course the American luxury brands should rank higher than any non-luxury brand. It makes sense, after all you're paying 20-40% more for the car when you buy a luxury model.

JD Power's Ratings (based on problems per 100 vehicles during first 3 years)
Lexus (luxury)
Lincoln (luxury)
Buick (luxury)
Cadillac (luxury)
Infiniti (luxury)
Toyota
Mercury
Honda
Acura (luxury)
Ford
Saturn
Chevy
Oldsmobile
GMC
Pontiac
Mazda
Subaru
Nissan
Mitsubishi
Suzuki
Isuzu

My other problem with JD Power's survey, it rates cars based on the first 3 years only. But everyone here will acknowledge that the Japanese makes do a lot better in the later years than the American makes. Consumer Reports has used car ratings which measure the life of cars over a greater period of time, and they have the Americans down a peg.

And did JD Power not even rate Hyundai??? The JD Power data is garbage in this case.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

My other problem with JD Power's survey, it rates cars based on the first 3 years only. But everyone here will acknowledge that the Japanese makes do a lot better in the later years than the American makes. Consumer Reports has used car ratings which measure the life of cars over a greater period of time, and they have the Americans down a peg.

I wouldn't acknowledge that. Like I said before, my parents have never kept a car for less than 10 years, and have never had major problems with their American cars. In fact, I can't wait to get around most older Japanese cars I get stuck behind because I can't stand the blue smoke from the burning oil that comes billowing out their tailpipes. Yet my best friend's 1985 Monte Carlo SS with the original engine and transmission and 150k+ miles doesn't do that. And my 1984 Cutlass Supreme with 120k+ never did that. And my wife's 1991 Lebaron Convertible with over 112k miles that we just sold didn't do it. I guess everyone's experiences are different.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I wouldn't acknowledge that. Like I said before, my parents have never kept a car for less than 10 years, and have never had major problems with their American cars. In fact, I can't wait to get around most older Japanese cars I get stuck behind because I can't stand the blue smoke from the burning oil that comes billowing out their tailpipes. Yet my best friend's 1985 Monte Carlo SS with the original engine and transmission and 150k+ miles doesn't do that. And my 1984 Cutlass Supreme with 120k+ never did that. And my wife's 1991 Lebaron Convertible with over 112k miles that we just sold didn't do it. I guess everyone's experiences are different.

Yeah you're kind of basing your judgments on anectdotal evidence you've witnessed, which isn't exactly scientific, nor is it a big enough sample size to pass any meaningful judgment.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I wouldn't acknowledge that. Like I said before, my parents have never kept a car for less than 10 years, and have never had major problems with their American cars. In fact, I can't wait to get around most older Japanese cars I get stuck behind because I can't stand the blue smoke from the burning oil that comes billowing out their tailpipes. Yet my best friend's 1985 Monte Carlo SS with the original engine and transmission and 150k+ miles doesn't do that. And my 1984 Cutlass Supreme with 120k+ never did that. And my wife's 1991 Lebaron Convertible with over 112k miles that we just sold didn't do it. I guess everyone's experiences are different.

And besides, right now you're mentioning cars that are friggin 20 years old. Nobody would buy a 1985 vehicle now. If you're serious about buying a car right now, you're talking about something from 2000 or later. Quality has changed a ton over the last 20 years.

Toyota and Honda have been pwning GM for the last five years in the ratings. Those are the relevant years to this discussion, since few would buy a car older than that.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And besides, right now you're mentioning cars that are friggin 20 years old. Nobody would buy a 1985 vehicle now. If you're serious about buying a car right now, you're talking about something from 2000 or later. Quality has changed a ton over the last 20 years.

Toyota and Honda have been pwning GM for the last five years in the ratings. Those are the relevant years to this discussion, since few would buy a car older than that.

Well, I was just responding to your comments that the rakings weren't reliable because they didn't address long term durability. Would you prefer I stick to discussing my former 2001 Stratus? Ok, I never had a problem with that.

And again, I don't think it's fair to say Toyota and Honda have been owning GM, since GM is comprised of Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Saturn, Saab, GMC, and Cadillac. And many ratings, just like anything, are completely subjective. Just because a Motortrend editor likes the layout of a Camry's dashboard doesn't mean I will. Reliablity? Ok, they've beaten out some of GM's line. Performance? Don't think so. Features for the same price? Not from what I've seen. Again, just because you value certain things and discount others (like performance) doesn't mean it's a verifiable fact that Toyota is better than Pontiac. It means it's your preference.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Well, I was just responding to your comments that the rakings weren't reliable because they didn't address long term durability. Would you prefer I stick to discussing my former 2001 Stratus? Ok, I never had a problem with that.

And again, I don't think it's fair to say Toyota and Honda have been owning GM, since GM is comprised of Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Saturn, Saab, GMC, and Cadillac. And many ratings, just like anything, are completely subjective. Just because a Motortrend editor likes the layout of a Camry's dashboard doesn't mean I will. Reliablity? Ok, they've beaten out some of GM's line. Performance? Don't think so. Features for the same price? Not from what I've seen. Again, just because you value certain things and discount others (like performance) doesn't mean it's a verifiable fact that Toyota is better than Pontiac. It means it's your preference.

We're having trouble here because of our difference in focus, I think. When I talk about ratings, I'm talking about the scientific tests that are done which measure the reliability of a car. Those ratings are as objective as it gets, they simply measure the frequency and severity of problems.

But there are ratings done where people are basically writing their opinions of a car's performance. And you're right, those are subjective.

That's my fault, I wasn't clear. Again, as you can see I'm focusing on how often a car breaks down and how costly it is to fix. Because the 2nd most important thing to me when it comes to cars is money (second to safety); what does it cost to buy, what does it cost to finance, what does it cost to fix, what does it cost to fuel. But we're clearly different, performance is more important to you than reliability. And that's cool.

Step one for any car buyer is to figure out what kind of driver they are. You and I definitely have a feel for that at this point.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I like how you are analyzing the costs/benefits of each car, because the price definitely has to enter the equation when you're talking about quality.

But be careful in your comparisons, a Dodge Neon (compact) is not the same class as a Toyota Camry (midsize sedan). If you're looking for the same-class comparison, go with the Neon and the Toyota Corrolla or Honda Civic.

But that's exactly my point. Too often foreign car buyers make blanket statements about "American cars" that might be supportable if they cite to cars like the Dodge Neon, Ford Escort, or Chevy Cavalier. I've conceeded that in that segment the Japanese have the edge. Basically I was warning about the same thing you mentioned here too: i.e. let's keep it apples to apples and not make broad generalizations.

The American models are often cheaper, but the quality isn't as good as the Japanese. I bolded a part of your post because I flat out disagree with it. None of the American cars you mentioned in that bolded section rank very high in terms of quality, and the Japanese makers are ahead according to just about every publication available. That is supported by Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, etcetera.

It's a given that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are better quality than GM, Chrysler, Ford, and Chevy. But you're right to question whether or not the extra money spent is worth it. That part comes down to individual perception.

Well, like I said, we could sit here and argue specifics, but I think you are discounting many of the cars I mentioned based on your own biases. The Covette consistently gets rave reviews for being one of the best performance cars in the world for the money. The Cadillac CTS isn't high in quality? I'd take serious issue with that. The Charger has gotten exceptional reviews for its bang-for-the-buck.

Really a lot of this comes down to personal preference. But my personal preference for American cars doesn't have me making broad statements about other foreign cars. I mean, personally, I wouldn't trade you my friend's lexus SUV for my Denali unless he threw in an extra 10 grand. Quality? I've ridden in it, it's an ok car. Overpriced for the money, lacks features, lacks power, and is fairly uninspiring. But again, that's just my preference.

My other friend's BMW 3 series? I dusted it with my old 2001 Stratus RT, and I had less problems with my car in 5 years than he had in 3 with his. Quality? Not from what we saw.

I think that's why cpayne's article was so on point to this discussion. Everyone just assumes that Acura, Honda, BMW and Toyota produce so much better cars than anything GM can put out, but it's just not true. To the extent you can point to lower quality lines like Chevy and Ford, and simply discount Caddillac, Lincoln, and Buick, I could easily point to Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan and discount Toyota and Honda. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as simple as Japan v. USA. There are way too many variations in "foreign" or even "Japanese" cars to simply say that they are better than "American" cars. You'd never catch me buying a Ford (no offense to anyone else), but you'd also never catch me buying a Mitsubishi.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

I think that's why cpayne's article was so on point to this discussion. Everyone just assumes that Acura, Honda, BMW and Toyota produce so much better cars than anything GM can put out, but it's just not true. To the extent you can point to lower quality lines like Chevy and Ford, and simply discount Caddillac, Lincoln, and Buick, I could easily point to Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan and discount Toyota and Honda. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as simple as Japan v. USA. There are way too many variations in "foreign" or even "Japanese" cars to simply say that they are better than "American" cars. You'd never catch me buying a Ford (no offense to anyone else), but you'd also never catch me buying a Mitsubishi.

True.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

But that's exactly my point. Too often foreign car buyers make blanket statements about "American cars" that might be supportable if they cite to cars like the Dodge Neon, Ford Escort, or Chevy Cavalier. I've conceeded that in that segment the Japanese have the edge. Basically I was warning about the same thing you mentioned here too: i.e. let's keep it apples to apples and not make broad generalizations.



Well, like I said, we could sit here and argue specifics, but I think you are discounting many of the cars I mentioned based on your own biases. The Covette consistently gets rave reviews for being one of the best performance cars in the world for the money. The Cadillac CTS isn't high in quality? I'd take serious issue with that. The Charger has gotten exceptional reviews for its bang-for-the-buck.

Really a lot of this comes down to personal preference. But my personal preference for American cars doesn't have me making broad statements about other foreign cars. I mean, personally, I wouldn't trade you my friend's lexus SUV for my Denali unless he threw in an extra 10 grand. Quality? I've ridden in it, it's an ok car. Overpriced for the money, lacks features, lacks power, and is fairly uninspiring. But again, that's just my preference.

My other friend's BMW 3 series? I dusted it with my old 2001 Stratus RT, and I had less problems with my car in 5 years than he had in 3 with his. Quality? Not from what we saw.

I think that's why cpayne's article was so on point to this discussion. Everyone just assumes that Acura, Honda, BMW and Toyota produce so much better cars than anything GM can put out, but it's just not true. To the extent you can point to lower quality lines like Chevy and Ford, and simply discount Caddillac, Lincoln, and Buick, I could easily point to Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan and discount Toyota and Honda. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not as simple as Japan v. USA. There are way too many variations in "foreign" or even "Japanese" cars to simply say that they are better than "American" cars. You'd never catch me buying a Ford (no offense to anyone else), but you'd also never catch me buying a Mitsubishi.

I agree that it comes down to personal preference a lot of the time. From what I can gather from your posts, you tend to judge quality based on the car's performance (engine strength, handling, feel etc) and your personal experience with it. I personally place a great deal of importance on crash tests and scientific surveys examining reliability for the long term.

In the end we're just looking at different things, I think. When I say quality, I'm thinking along the lines of how often is this thing going to break down or need repairs. To me, a car is simply something that can get me from point A to point B consistently, safely, affordably, and comfortably. I could care less what it looks like, how fast it accelerates, what color it is, etcetera.

There are American models which rate ahead of the Japanese, I don't mean to make a blanket statement saying all Japanese cars are better. So you definitely have to compare model to model. But in the end, there's a reason that the Toyota and Honda brands have a better reputation.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I agree that it comes down to personal preference a lot of the time. From what I can gather from your posts, you tend to judge quality based on the car's performance (engine strength, handling, feel etc) and your personal experience with it. I personally place a great deal of importance on crash tests and scientific surveys examining reliability for the long term.

In the end we're just looking at different things, I think. When I say quality, I'm thinking along the lines of how often is this thing going to break down or need repairs. To me, a car is simply something that can get me from point A to point B consistently, safely, affordably, and comfortably. I could care less what it looks like, how fast it accelerates, what color it is, etcetera.

There are American models which rate ahead of the Japanese, I don't mean to make a blanket statement saying all Japanese cars are better. So you definitely have to compare model to model. But in the end, there's a reason that the Toyota and Honda brands have a better reputation.

They have a reputation because people like you keep making these silly posts!

Actually I think you are right on mostly here. It really does come down to what's important and personal experiences. I've never had my American cars really let me down. If I had a ton of bad exeriences, I might be singing a different tune. And to me, performance is a really big deal. I simply can't drive a Camry with a 4 cylinder engine because my penis is just too small for that.......so I need something that can represent a bigger extension of my schwanger. I also have this road rage problem that mandates a faster car to either catch up to someone to flip them off or to get away from the wrong guy who I just flipped off.

Seriously though, I think my only real problem was people making blanket generalizations. I'm not going to sit here and tell people the Neon is a great car. But that doesn't mean the Cadillac CTS or Envoy or Charger or G6 can't be good either. Just like it'd be unfair to lable a suzuki or isuzu a great car just because it's japanese. If people want to make specific recommendations about specific cars they have some knowledge about, that's great.......but not at the expense of ripping an entire country's automobiles.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

They have a reputation because people like you keep making these silly posts!

Actually I think you are right on mostly here. It really does come down to what's important and personal experiences. I've never had my American cars really let me down. If I had a ton of bad exeriences, I might be singing a different tune. And to me, performance is a really big deal. I simply can't drive a Camry with a 4 cylinder engine because my penis is just too small for that.......so I need something that can represent a bigger extension of my schwanger. I also have this road rage problem that mandates a faster car to either catch up to someone to flip them off or to get away from the wrong guy who I just flipped off.

Seriously though, I think my only real problem was people making blanket generalizations. I'm not going to sit here and tell people the Neon is a great car. But that doesn't mean the Cadillac CTS or Envoy or Charger or G6 can't be good either. Just like it'd be unfair to lable a suzuki or isuzu a great car just because it's japanese. If people want to make specific recommendations about specific cars they have some knowledge about, that's great.......but not at the expense of ripping an entire country's automobiles.

Nice post, I'm with you, especially on the bolded part.

I think to sum it all up, it's safe to say that the way to go about buying a car would be:

1) Figure out what kind of features are important to you (safety, performance, styling, reliability, price, cost of maintenance, gas mileage, etc.). This helps you narrow your search to certain classes and models.

2) Take in data from Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, and any other pertinent data you can find. If you're looking at a used 2002 model though, make sure you find ratings for the 2002 model. Don't read a rating on the 2006 and assume it applies. And if you're looking for a used model, find a used car rating for it. The new car rating that came out on the 2002 model will not apply as well as a used car rating written in 2006. This research helps you narrow your focus to a few models.

3) Test drive a couple and compare how they feel. If you're a performance guy like PSU, place more emphasis on Test Driving than on the research. If you're like me and don't care much about how the car looks or feels, place the emphasis on the research.

4) Find market pricing data. Look on the internet for dealer invoice prices for each model you like. Expect to pay 200-500 above invoice. This gives you a better feel for guaging prices than comparing sticker price.

5) Buy at the end of the calendar month. Dealers look to move cars faster at the end of the month to push the sales onto their books for the month. Buying at the end of a quarter, or best yet, near the end of a model year (July-August) gives you more negotiating power.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Nice post, I'm with you, especially on the bolded part.

I think to sum it all up, it's safe to say that the way to go about buying a car would be:

1) Figure out what kind of features are important to you (safety, performance, styling, reliability, price, cost of maintenance, gas mileage, etc.). This helps you narrow your search to certain classes and models.

2) Take in data from Consumer Reports, JD Power, Motor Trend, and any other pertinent data you can find. If you're looking at a used 2002 model though, make sure you find ratings for the 2002 model. Don't read a rating on the 2006 and assume it applies. And if you're looking for a used model, find a used car rating for it. The new car rating that came out on the 2002 model will not apply as well as a used car rating written in 2006. This research helps you narrow your focus to a few models.

3) Test drive a couple and compare how they feel. If you're a performance guy like PSU, place more emphasis on Test Driving than on the research. If you're like me and don't care much about how the car looks or feels, place the emphasis on the research.

4) Find market pricing data. Look on the internet for dealer invoice prices for each model you like. Expect to pay 200-500 above invoice. This gives you a better feel for guaging prices than comparing sticker price.

5) Buy at the end of the calendar month. Dealers look to move cars faster at the end of the month to push the sales onto their books for the month. Buying at the end of a quarter, or best yet, near the end of a model year (July-August) gives you more negotiating power.

I am in 100% agreement with this. And as to #4, I would recommend Kelly Blue Book (www.kbb.com). I just used them to get the fair value on my trade in and to know the general invoice price on the car before I even walked through the door. I got a great deal by pretty much printing everything out and saying "I know what the heck I'm talking about, here it is, either make it happen or I walk". It cut out at least two or three rounds of waiting while the guy goes to his manager, comes back, goes back to his manager, comes back, goes back again, comes back and claims he's not making any money on the car, goes back again........

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

comes back and claims he's not making any money on the car

Geez, don't they all try this one? I don't think I have ever bought a car that the dealer was actually making money on or wasn't going "backwards" on. No wonder all these dealerships are going out of husiness.


Sarcasm intended on that last part there.