Take 70Chip's Mark Brunell Rorshock Test

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'm still a #3 because absolutely no QB in the league would have won this game for us, but Brunell was dreadful today. He was put in the worst possible conditions (Bad weather, on the road, in the division, Portis out, trailing early, questionable playcalling, defensive scheme that attacks) and played exactly the way I would expect a guy put in those conditions to play. Ties the first Dallas game for ineptitude, although the deck was stacked heavily against him. The interception should never have been thrown.

I wouldn't make the switch this week for multiple reasons. Number 1, you don't want to break Jason Campbell in on the road when the team isn't playing well. Number 2, it would be a significant injustice to Mark Brunell to bench him after forcing him into the situation that the coaching staff and team did. Number 3, we will never play another game that is this difficult to win this season. So although we have next to nil chance to win the division, a wild card berth is a possibility if we win out against a schedule where we have all of our tough games at home, where weve been right in every contest over the last two seasons. It still would be a bad decision to try to have Campbell save the season.

The switch is certainly on the horizion though. If we as a team can't beat Tampa Bay, the switch should be made. I'm guessing this is the way Gibbs is thinking right now.

But if you are relying on a 2nd year inexpirenced player to save the franchise, you have another thing coming.

I saw McNabb and Randle El throw tight long passes in that same weather. should Brunell take any responsibility at all for 'trailing early'? and as for 'defensive scheme that attacks'...well that sounds like all NFL defenses, technically so does ours.

i think it's an utterly ridiculous case. especially the part where we OWE Brunell another chance, when his whole career as a Redskin has been exactly that. you don't bring in a QB when the team is struggling? when do you bring them in exactly? when they're doing great? ask Parcells about that, he knows a bit about coaching i hear.

you have more than another thing coming if you think Brunell is going to win out this season. hasn't he demoralized the fans and the team enough?

[illdefined]

i'm still waiting for a response to this.

Originally Posted by illdefined

I saw McNabb and Randle El throw tight long passes in that same weather. should Brunell take any responsibility at all for 'trailing early'? and as for 'defensive scheme that attacks'...well that sounds like all NFL defenses, technically so does ours.

i think it's an utterly ridiculous case. especially the part where we OWE Brunell another chance, when his whole career as a Redskin has been exactly that. you don't bring in a QB when the team is struggling? when do you bring them in exactly? when they're doing great? ask Parcells about that, he knows a bit about coaching i hear.

you have more than another thing coming if you think Brunell is going to win out this season. hasn't he demoralized the fans and the team enough?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by illdefined

I saw McNabb and Randle El throw tight long passes in that same weather. should Brunell take any responsibility at all for 'trailing early'? and as for 'defensive scheme that attacks'...well that sounds like all NFL defenses, technically so does ours.

i think it's an utterly ridiculous case. especially the part where we OWE Brunell another chance, when his whole career as a Redskin has been exactly that. you don't bring in a QB when the team is struggling? when do you bring them in exactly? when they're doing great? ask Parcells about that, he knows a bit about coaching i hear.

you have more than another thing coming if you think Brunell is going to win out this season. hasn't he demoralized the fans and the team enough?

You WANT your response? Damn, you are confident in your arguement.

And why not, it's a sound arguement. It's too bad I completely agree with you about this game, and was just presenting the opposing viewpoint.

Except in the last point. Do I THINK Brunell will win out this season? Absolutely not. It falls in the improbable category. But you are too easily swayed. Nothing happened in this game that surprised me. Brunell has shitty games every once in awhile. The Eagles REALLY had something to prove, and really we were just a victim of that. They were by far the better team, but we knew that going in.

No, he hasn't done anything to demoralize the fans. The TEAM has. If we were 6 and 2 and Phili had just beat the daylights out of us to drop us to 6-3 and Brunell had this kind of day, we would just move on. Like we should now. It was a massacre. Let's get ready for Tampa Bay.

After all, what's the penalty for playing to win the game when you still have a chance?

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

You WANT your response? Damn, you are confident in your arguement.

And why not, it's a sound arguement. It's too bad I completely agree with you about this game, and was just presenting the opposing viewpoint.

Except in the last point. Do I THINK Brunell will win out this season? Absolutely not. It falls in the improbable category. But you are too easily swayed. Nothing happened in this game that surprised me. Brunell has shitty games every once in awhile. The Eagles REALLY had something to prove, and really we were just a victim of that. They were by far the better team, but we knew that going in.

No, he hasn't done anything to demoralize the fans. The TEAM has. If we were 6 and 2 and Phili had just beat the daylights out of us to drop us to 6-3 and Brunell had this kind of day, we would just move on. Like we should now. It was a massacre. Let's get ready for Tampa Bay.

After all, what's the penalty for playing to win the game when you still have a chance?

well i appreciate the civility but you've completely lost me now Tripp, this was my response to your first take on the game. you didn't start that excuse emporium by saying you were just being a devil's advocate.

expecting to lose and all that - i'll never be down for that argument, not as a fan and not even as an objective observer. you expected -4 pts with an offense that has Moss, Lloyd, Randle, Cooley and Portis and a healthy starting O-Line? sorry not buying it, not even close. just because you refuse to see the weak link here on the forums doesn't mean you don't know what it really is in your heart of hearts. even if those checkdowns you harp on were money, does that speak well of Brunell? if Betts is traded next season like has been proposed, then this 'efficient offense' you constantly defend will really be a shambles.

i never thought i'd hear rain, or the "shitty game allowance" excuse come from you, i expected some cold hard numbers. of course there won't be many for today, but please feel free to use the season's numbers, because that's what we're all talking about anyway. ask any 10 fans if they haven't been demoralized by Brunell all year, and you'll get at least 8 who'll tell what i'm telling you. the majority of the offensive yards this season are from Brunell to Betts, two players that shouldn't be on our team next year.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by illdefined

well i appreciate the civility but you've completely lost me now Tripp, this was my response to your first take on the game. you didn't start that excuse emporium by saying you were just being a devil's advocate.

expecting to lose and all that - i'll never be down for that argument, not as a fan and not even as an objective observer. you expected -4 pts with an offense that has Moss, Lloyd, Randle, Cooley and Portis and a healthy starting O-Line? sorry not buying it, not even close. just because you refuse to see the weak link here on the forums doesn't mean you don't know what it really is in your heart of hearts. even if those checkdowns you harp on were money, does that speak well of Brunell? if Betts is traded next season like has been proposed, then this 'efficient offense' you constantly defend will really be a shambles.

i never thought i'd hear rain, or the "shitty game allowance" excuse come from you, i expected some cold hard numbers. of course there won't be many for today, but please feel free to use the season's numbers, because that's what we're all talking about anyway. ask any 10 fans if they haven't been demoralized by Brunell all year, and you'll get at least 8 who'll tell what i'm telling you. the majority of the offensive yards this season are from Brunell to Betts, two players that shouldn't be on our team next year.

Well, I obviously didn't expect the offense to be this colossally horrible, but honestly 27-3, 27-26...what the hell's the difference? Emotional whatever? Emotion certainly plays a part, but the thing about the NFL is each week is a new week, and a close loss isn't going to help morale any more than a blowout. I think a win this week would have been wishful thinking and required a great deal of luck, something the Eagles certainly haven't been short on. What more can you say when a jarring hit on a 3rd and long play ends up creating a touchdown? ST did miss the tackle, but you eventually need things to break your way. Outside of the blocked FG against Dallas, this season has been lack of luck piled upon poor calls, upon bad defense. I had the Eagles winning this game preseason, and I was prepared to deal with a team coming off three losses following their bye week. They weren't going to lose. It's unfortuante we got them when we did. The Dawkins knockdown on the Randle El pass was my point in a nutshell. Would have been our play of the season if we had made it.

So with all that said, my season outlook hasn't changed from this morning to now. We are still a longshot to make the playoffs. Were this morning, are now.

My point here is subjective and cannot be completely backed by numbers...so either you have an open ear or you don't...no skin off my back.

Today, Brunell was ONE of our weak links. I don't think a road game at Phili should take away from what he's done simply because of some carried over frusteration.

I am with the rest of you when you say Campbell should get ready to play. But not NEXT week. That is all. The offense should be just as efficient under Campbell next season. He has a great statistical projection to the NFL. But performance in first start can not possibly ever be projected. If he doesn't ever get to play this season, we will probably be in the same boat as if he started the final 9 games and went 2-5.

There is NO rush with Jason Campbell. The #1 assumed opinion on this board is that Campbell has to play sometime this season or we sacrifice next year. It's wrong. Regardless of whether Campbell plays or not, we still have the offseason. He's not "going to develop a rhythym" that he keeps over 8 months.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'm still a #3 because absolutely no QB in the league would have won this game for us, but Brunell was dreadful today. He was put in the worst possible conditions (Bad weather, on the road, in the division, Portis out, trailing early, questionable playcalling, defensive scheme that attacks) and played exactly the way I would expect a guy put in those conditions to play. Ties the first Dallas game for ineptitude, although the deck was stacked heavily against him. The interception should never have been thrown.

I wouldn't make the switch this week for multiple reasons. Number 1, you don't want to break Jason Campbell in on the road when the team isn't playing well. Number 2, it would be a significant injustice to Mark Brunell to bench him after forcing him into the situation that the coaching staff and team did. Number 3, we will never play another game that is this difficult to win this season. So although we have next to nil chance to win the division, a wild card berth is a possibility if we win out against a schedule where we have all of our tough games at home, where weve been right in every contest over the last two seasons. It still would be a bad decision to try to have Campbell save the season.

The switch is certainly on the horizion though. If we as a team can't beat Tampa Bay, the switch should be made. I'm guessing this is the way Gibbs is thinking right now.

But if you are relying on a 2nd year inexpirenced player to save the franchise, you have another thing coming.

First, let me say at the beginning of the season I was a number 3. In fact, I would have been a #4 - Mark Brunell is a QB that is capable of carrying us to a Super Bowl championship given the talent and coaching staff he has around him.

But now I'm firmly in the #2 camp, in my eyes the season is over and we're looking forward to next year. And GTripp, I don't get where you're coming from.

First, far be it for the Redskins to ever think long-term, but I do. Campbell needs to play now because the team needs to find out what he's made of. We need to see some glimmer of hope that he could be the answer next season. Throwing him in against Tampa is the perfect situation. If a QB is going to have a fragile phyche and have trouble dealing with a road game against below-.500 Tampa Bay, then he doesn't have the mindset to be my QB... EVER. It's the perfect time to put him in. If the line protects him, we'll find out if he's accurate, if he knows the reads, if he can make the throws, and if he can execute the offense. If the line doesn't protect him, we'll find out how he responds: will he get sacked 5 times and get right back up and lead us down the field? Or will he get the Jeff George deer-in-headlights look?

These are not high-schoolers we're playing with. These are men. If Jason Campbell is going to be our QB, he's going to exhibit the leadership qualities that a grown-up QB should - win or lose. Throw him into the fire - sink or swim. He's a man, he can take it. We don't have to baby him and wait for a home game to find out what he's made of.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'm still a #3 because absolutely no QB in the league would have won this game for us, but Brunell was dreadful today. He was put in the worst possible conditions (Bad weather, on the road, in the division, Portis out, trailing early, questionable playcalling, defensive scheme that attacks) and played exactly the way I would expect a guy put in those conditions to play. Ties the first Dallas game for ineptitude, although the deck was stacked heavily against him. The interception should never have been thrown.

I wouldn't make the switch this week for multiple reasons. Number 1, you don't want to break Jason Campbell in on the road when the team isn't playing well. Number 2, it would be a significant injustice to Mark Brunell to bench him after forcing him into the situation that the coaching staff and team did. Number 3, we will never play another game that is this difficult to win this season. So although we have next to nil chance to win the division, a wild card berth is a possibility if we win out against a schedule where we have all of our tough games at home, where weve been right in every contest over the last two seasons. It still would be a bad decision to try to have Campbell save the season.

The switch is certainly on the horizion though. If we as a team can't beat Tampa Bay, the switch should be made. I'm guessing this is the way Gibbs is thinking right now.

But if you are relying on a 2nd year inexpirenced player to save the franchise, you have another thing coming.

Give me a break! You sound like Gibbs. No one is asking Jason C. to save the franchise. Look at our pee-wee league offense? Any starting or back-up NFL QB could run our offense. Any college QB could throw screens and 5 yard slants. Take a look around the NFL. Rothlesburger, E. Manning, Leinart, Grossman, Frye, A Smith, Leftwich, Palmer, Carr and Lossman. All these QB's got to start in their 1st or 2nd years. Why is JC any different? Brunell struggles to throw for 150 yards. Pathetic stats for a NFL QB with three good WR's and a solid TE. This team should always have 200 - 250 yards passing. When was the last time Brunell had a 300 yard game? There is no reason to coddle Jason C. anymore. This guy played 4 years in the SEC in front 100,000 every week. He is use to pressure. oH, and bye the way. WE GAVE UP 2 FIRST ROUNDER TO GET HIM! I think he can handle an aging, slow TB defense. Plus TB is playing Gradkowski!!!!! This is just absurd. There is NO REASON that Campbell should not start next week.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Give me a break! You sound like Gibbs.

Why is this a bad thing?

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Why is this a bad thing?

because thats public Gibbs when he's in press conferences grasping at any positive numbers to not demoralize his players any more than they just were on the field.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Why is this a bad thing?

Let's take to diapers off JC and frickin play the guy. Enough is enough.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Let's take to diapers off JC and frickin play the guy. Enough is enough.

lol. You sound like Dick Vermeil.

Not that theres anything wrong with that.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'm still a #3 because absolutely no QB in the league would have won this game for us, but Brunell was dreadful today. He was put in the worst possible conditions (Bad weather, on the road, in the division, Portis out, trailing early, questionable playcalling, defensive scheme that attacks) and played exactly the way I would expect a guy put in those conditions to play. Ties the first Dallas game for ineptitude, although the deck was stacked heavily against him. The interception should never have been thrown.

I wouldn't make the switch this week for multiple reasons. Number 1, you don't want to break Jason Campbell in on the road when the team isn't playing well. Number 2, it would be a significant injustice to Mark Brunell to bench him after forcing him into the situation that the coaching staff and team did. Number 3, we will never play another game that is this difficult to win this season. So although we have next to nil chance to win the division, a wild card berth is a possibility if we win out against a schedule where we have all of our tough games at home, where weve been right in every contest over the last two seasons. It still would be a bad decision to try to have Campbell save the season.

The switch is certainly on the horizion though. If we as a team can't beat Tampa Bay, the switch should be made. I'm guessing this is the way Gibbs is thinking right now.

But if you are relying on a 2nd year inexpirenced player to save the franchise, you have another thing coming.

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-l...tml#post244173

this was the first Tripp post had after the game, kinda out of left field (he said he was just expressing the opposite view) and riled a lot of people up.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by illdefined

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-l...tml#post244173

this was the first Tripp post had after the game, kinda out of left field (he said he was just expressing the opposite view) and riled a lot of people up.

I understand what he's saying but I disagree about us owing Brunell anything. He's had his time and now it's clearly time to start thinking about a future that doesn't involve him.

Regarding the switch and when it will happen, I said a few weeks ago that I don't expect the change to be made until we hit 7 losses.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

GTripp,

No QB could have won that game for us? That's a little bit of an overstatement. The defense gave up 20 points. I think there are a lot of teams that could put up 20+ points on the Eagles.

So Brunell gets a pass because the weather was bad and he was on the road in a division game. I hate to break it to you, but you are EXPECTED to play well, even if it is wet outside, you are playing an away game, or are playing in your division.

Also, Philly plays an agressive style of defense, but Burnell wasn't exactly forcing them to back off. Does ANYONE in the league respect our deep pasing game? Nope. Brunell bears some of the blame for opponents attacking.

What situation did the coaches put Brunell in? They are to blame for the rain? They are to blame for the road game? They are to blame for having our team play division opponents?

No one thinks Campbell is going to save our season, Brunell and others have lost it for us. It's just time to start working towards the future.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

GTripp,

No QB could have won that game for us? That's a little bit of an overstatement. The defense gave up 20 points. I think there are a lot of teams that could put up 20+ points on the Eagles.

So Brunell gets a pass because the weather was bad and he was on the road in a division game. I hate to break it to you, but you are EXPECTED to play well, even if it is wet outside, you are playing an away game, or are playing in your division.

Also, Philly plays an agressive style of defense, but Burnell wasn't exactly forcing them to back off. Does ANYONE in the league respect our deep pasing game? Nope. Brunell bears some of the blame for opponents attacking.

What situation did the coaches put Brunell in? They are to blame for the rain? They are to blame for the road game? They are to blame for having our team play division opponents?

No one thinks Campbell is going to save our season, Brunell and others have lost it for us. It's just time to start working towards the future.

OK, lets say for a second that you are right and I am wrong, and Tom Brady would have won this game for us. That means Brunell had a bad game. Colosselly bad, or just bad, it's all sort of moot. I guarentee you if allowed to start the rest of the season, he would not play a game anywere near this bad rest of the year.

Of course there will be a point where we have to cut our losses and start JC while playing for next year. And we are certainly on the doorstep. But my ONLY point is that starting him against TB would be counterproductive on many levels.

I think if your point is that no matter how well our team had played, that Brunell's performance would have lost the game, I would agree with you. We could not have won with those kind of numbers from Brunell. Not possible. But if you actually want to investigate into WHY he was so horrible, it's obvious that none of the reasons will carry over to next week, save maybe the Portis one.

A lot of people have the stance that Brunell is part of the team's problems. How about this one? The team is part of Brunell's problem.