Seven Steps to Redskins Renewal

[ArtMonkDrillz]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I simpy don't trust Gibbs anymore.

Yeah, it's hard to trust him when he's contradicted himself so many times since he's been back. They made a guy like AA the highest paid player in league history at his position but he can't even crack the 3rd string and we're supposed to have faith that they can accurately evaluate anyone?
That might be too big a leap of faith for me at this point.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by ArtMonkDrillz

Yeah, it's hard to trust him when he's contradicted himself so many times since he's been back. They made a guy like AA the highest paid player in league history at his position but he can't even crack the 3rd string and we're supposed to have faith that they can accurately evaluate anyone?
That might be too big a leap of faith for me at this point.

If this was anyone else he would be run out of town.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

If this was anyone else he would be run out of town.

But the point is that its not anyone else, its Joe Gibbs.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But the point is that its not anyone else, its Joe Gibbs.

I understand but the past doesn't buy you anything. He has shown no ability to judge personel. Some of the teams w/ good GM's are just laughing at us. I mean Gibbs said Desmond Howard had no weaknesses.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I understand but the past doesn't buy you anything. He has shown no ability to judge personel. Some of the teams w/ good GM's are just laughing at us. I mean Gibbs said Desmond Howard had no weaknesses.

He's flat out said his job is to bring in guys who have the intangibles and character we are allegedly looking for. This is why I suspect a lot of the player evaluation stuff is coming from other people who he's delegated to and trusts. Also why I say he's still accountable, but probably not ultimately responsible for a lot of the bad player evaluations.

Unfortunately the only way that problem gets solved is for whomever that trust/power/responsibility has been delegated to, to be removed, and it will take a lot of high profile screwups for that to happen.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by dgack

He's flat out said his job is to bring in guys who have the intangibles and character we are allegedly looking for. This is why I suspect a lot of the player evaluation stuff is coming from other people who he's delegated to and trusts. Also why I say he's still accountable, but probably not ultimately responsible for a lot of the bad player evaluations.

Unfortunately the only way that problem gets solved is for whomever that trust/power/responsibility has been delegated to, to be removed, and it will take a lot of high profile screwups for that to happen.

I assume Williams signed off on having Clark and Pierce leave. I guess he also thought AA, LM and AC were solid replacements. However Gibbs side of the ball is offense. IMO there was no need bring in two WR's. ARE would have been just fine. Thrash can play the 3rd wideout. Plus Thrash plays teams. Could have used the 3rd or 4th rounder we spent on LLoyd on a big wr and o-line or d-line depth.

[Citizens for 81]

I thought this tread was a 12-step program to help me get over my addiction to football teams that suck (2006 redskins).

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by ArtMonkDrillz

Yeah, it's hard to trust him when he's contradicted himself so many times since he's been back. They made a guy like AA the highest paid player in league history at his position but he can't even crack the 3rd string and we're supposed to have faith that they can accurately evaluate anyone?
That might be too big a leap of faith for me at this point.

Is Archuleta the only move he made? Did you mistrust him when we got Portis, Taylor, Cooley, Washington, Moss and jetissoned guys like McCants, Bowen, Gardner?

I mean yeah he's made mistakes. And chances are he will again. But it's not as if it's one bad move after another and I don't know anyone can say he can't be trusted or can't evaluate anyone

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Is Archuleta the only move he made? Did you mistrust him when we got Portis, Taylor, Cooley, Washington, Moss and jetissoned guys like McCants, Bowen, Gardner?

I mean yeah he's made mistakes. And chances are he will again. But it's not as if it's one bad move after another and I don't know anyone can say he can't be trusted or can't evaluate anyone

Those were good moves. Especially Cooley. But anyone can go get a bunch of FA's if you have an owner that will spend for bonuses. It doesn't take a brillant FO person to get FA's. And if you ask me the jury is still out on Taylor. He really must improve on coverage and being a more disiplined player. But the bad moves are so bad that it's not even funny. They are just horrible moves. The Duckett move was the last straw for me. How does someone who is away from it for 11 years all of a sudden come in off the street and have complete control over personel? Makes no sense. Just coach the team. He's having a hard enough time doing that. Dick Vermeil didn't get full control when he came back. And he was at least doing broadcasting. But where are the 3rd and 4th round gems? Where are Marcus Colston's? Where are the Demarcus Ware's? This is what Bobby B. was so good at. Bottom line is hire a GM and make that person have complete control over personel and leave Gibbs to coaching.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Those were good moves. Especially Cooley. But anyone can go get a bunch of FA's if you have an owner that will spend for bonuses. It doesn't take a brillant FO person to get FA's. And if you ask me the jury is still out on Taylor. He really must improve on coverage and being a more disiplined player. But the bad moves are so bad that it's not even funny. They are just horrible moves. The Duckett move was the last straw for me. How does someone who is away from it for 11 years all of a sudden come in off the street and have complete control over personel? Makes no sense. Just coach the team. He's having a hard enough time doing that. Dick Vermeil didn't get full control when he came back. And he was at least doing broadcasting. But where are the 3rd and 4th round gems? Where are Marcus Colston's? Where are the Demarcus Ware's? This is what Bobby B. was so good at. Bottom line is hire a GM and make that person have complete control over personel and leave Gibbs to coaching.

Well, just about every team passed on Colston over and over again. And Ware wasn't exactly a midround steal. He was a first round pick.

But really, the most interesting point you bring up is Duckett. Because I think this is one case where Gibbs the coach is at fault, not Gibbs the President. The move to get Duckett was good. A young, powerful back who has proven he can play in the league and could spell Portis and be insurance should Betts test the market (which of course didn't happen)

For whatever reason though, Duckett barely saw the field but I really don't think Gibbs the President traded for him thinking Gibbs the Player had no place for him on the field.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Well, just about every team passed on Colston over and over again. And Ware wasn't exactly a midround steal. He was a first round pick.

But really, the most interesting point you bring up is Duckett. Because I think this is one case where Gibbs the coach is at fault, not Gibbs the President. The move to get Duckett was good. A young, powerful back who has proven he can play in the league and could spell Portis and be insurance should Betts test the market (which of course didn't happen)

For whatever reason though, Duckett barely saw the field but I really don't think Gibbs the President traded for him thinking Gibbs the Player had no place for him on the field.

Sorry but giving up a 3rd rounder for him is just absurd. When you have injuries back-ups come in and perform. You see it all around the league. Devry Henderson sure played well in place of Horn on Sun didn't he? Plus they could have used Sellers as a big back. He was running very well during the preseason. If you wanted to bring in Duckett fine. Bring him in after the season is over and get him for nothing. Plus, (and this is the big thing for me) Duckett does not play teams. If you are a back-up YOU MUST play teams. He is just not a versitile enough player that could justify a 3rd round pick. If we draft someone in the 3rd round chances are that player is going to play teams. Right? PLUS if Gibbs looked at the film he would have saw that Rock C. could run if needed. So that move was just a waste.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Sorry but giving up a 3rd rounder for him is just absurd. When you have injuries back-ups come in and perform. You see it all around the league. Devry Henderson sure played well in place of Horn on Sun didn't he? Plus they could have used Sellers as a big back. He was running very well during the preseason. If you wanted to bring in Duckett fine. Bring him in after the season is over and get him for nothing. Plus, (and this is the big thing for me) Duckett does not play teams. If you are a back-up YOU MUST play teams. He is just not a versitile enough player that could justify a 3rd round pick. If we draft someone in the 3rd round chances are that player is going to play teams. Right? PLUS if Gibbs looked at the film he would have saw that Rock C. could run if needed. So that move was just a waste.

I agree that the Duckett move was a bad move, but only because the back acquired was the wrong guy.

TAF's point is that Coach Joe Gibbs noticed a need for a quality running back, so he pulled the trigger on Duckett. But it was Team President Joe Gibbs who made the mistake. Some simple film study would have shown that Duckett doesn't run like a big back. He's timid, tiptoes, takes forever to get from the I to the line, and is best in open space. We already had Ladell Betts and Rock Cartwright who are both probably better runners than Duckett. And the 3rd was probably far too much to send for him. I think Gibbs was willing to pay for a name that defenses would respect if Portis couldn't play, but a 3rd could have bought a much better player than Duckett, a borderline bust.

Coach Gibbs was trying to fill a need. Someone should have been there to point out that Duckett wasn't going to fill our need.

Luckily for us, Betts stepped up and filled the need, so the only thing we are out is a 3rd round pick.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by ArtMonkDrillz

Yeah, it's hard to trust him when he's contradicted himself so many times since he's been back. They made a guy like AA the highest paid player in league history at his position but he can't even crack the 3rd string and we're supposed to have faith that they can accurately evaluate anyone?
That might be too big a leap of faith for me at this point.

I wanted to say something about this -- which is, one of the problems with blaming (or praising) Gibbs for every decision, is that, like it or not, it's very probable that a lot of those decisions were made fairly independently by guys who he has delegated a lot of authority to. When Grilliamss decided he wanted Arch Deluxe and wanted to drop a ton of cash on him, Joe ultimately had to sign off on the deal, but what it likely came down to was him saying, "do I trust and believe in this guy (Grilliamss)?" and "Does what he's saying seem so wrong that I can't allow it to happen?"

When you're a leader in a management organization like the Skins, you learn pretty quick that micromanagement and looking over the shoulders of your subordinates is a huge mistake (and a waste of time). It sabotages them, they resent it, and ultimately it just kills any leadership development. What you do is bring in good, smart people you believe in, and you let them do their thing. If they need help, you give it, and if they screw up, you gotta let them know. But you also know you can't go countermanding their instructions or you essentially undermine their leadership entirely.

I firmly believe Joe is going to have a lot to say to both Saunders and Grilliamss in the offseason, and he may very well be less willing to sign off on things they ask for, sight unseen. They probably lost a little bit of his trust, and should have to earn it back. But I also know that as a leader who wants his people to succeed, Joe is not necessarily the cause of all of this mess.

He's accountable for it, but I'm not so sure he's responsible for it. There's a big difference.

[JDALY27]

Originally Posted by dgack

I wanted to say something about this -- which is, one of the problems with blaming (or praising) Gibbs for every decision, is that, like it or not, it's very probable that a lot of those decisions were made fairly independently by guys who he has delegated a lot of authority to. When Grilliamss decided he wanted Arch Deluxe and wanted to drop a ton of cash on him, Joe ultimately had to sign off on the deal, but what it likely came down to was him saying, "do I trust and believe in this guy (Grilliamss)?" and "Does what he's saying seem so wrong that I can't allow it to happen?"

When you're a leader in a management organization like the Skins, you learn pretty quick that micromanagement and looking over the shoulders of your subordinates is a huge mistake (and a waste of time). It sabotages them, they resent it, and ultimately it just kills any leadership development. What you do is bring in good, smart people you believe in, and you let them do their thing. If they need help, you give it, and if they screw up, you gotta let them know. But you also know you can't go countermanding their instructions or you essentially undermine their leadership entirely.

I firmly believe Joe is going to have a lot to say to both Saunders and Grilliamss in the offseason, and he may very well be less willing to sign off on things they ask for, sight unseen. They probably lost a little bit of his trust, and should have to earn it back. But I also know that as a leader who wants his people to succeed, Joe is not necessarily the cause of all of this mess.

He's accountable for it, but I'm not so sure he's responsible for it. There's a big difference.

Good points but you're just guessing. Noone knows how it goes down on the inside. Drafting Sean Taylor over Winslow lead me to beleive you're right about personel moves by G. Williams over Gibbs. That was year 1 though. Interesting to see where they go in this draft coming up.....

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dgack

He's accountable for it, but I'm not so sure he's responsible for it. There's a big difference.

Indeed. Couldn't have said it better myself.