F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

That's just not true. Many religions (Christianity included) believe their respective God possesses infinite intelligence (i.e., omniscience). With omniscience, everything that will happen is known. Thus, we are free to "choose", but, in fact, someone knows how it will all turn out. You can argue semantics, but a known ending, even if we believe we are "choosing" it, is fate.

It's a topic that confuses people far more intelligent than me, but certain religions are intertwined with fate. When someone says "Everything happens for a reason," it can often be a statement of faith.

If you read down a bit further through that very link, you see all the conflicting thoughts and views on predestination in Christianity. It's all over the map, there is not one generally accepted view.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Once, I heard something pretty profound, and it kinda relates:

I was told that everything everyone does their first choice. Every action somebody performs is their first choice, given the circumstances. For example, a homeless person is homeless, because it's their choice -- not due to some external events.

Here's the reasoning:
Nobody does anything they don't want to do. Sure, there are things we don't want to do -- but if we do them, it's for a reason. Usually, when we do something we don't "want" to it's because we'd rather not face the consequences of neglecting to do them. Therefore, everything we do is because we choose to -- mostly because we are trying to avoid worse circumstances. So, a homeless person is homeless because they would rather not face the consequences/responsibilities of not being homeless. Their first choice is to be homeless.

This can be carried to the point of absurdity, so let's not get too literal. Of course my first choice would be to win the lottery and never work again. However, I choose to work everyday because the outcome is more predictable and more certain. Therefore, work is my first choice -- d'oh!

[cpayne5]

I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.

Just as Austin Powers did thinking about time travel and his mojo, I have now gone cross eyed thinking about this.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.

I was tempted to approach this from a physics standpoint, but I couldn't even figure out how to explain it. You did a pretty good job.

One thing I would add: Due to the principle of uncertainty, nobody can ever know the outcome of every event (even though all events are based upon natural laws). As we discover more about quantum physics it seems that there is a great deal of chaos in the universe, and not as much order as we thought. Then there's that idea of order in chaos -- that a state of chaos is the most ordered state -- I still can't comprehend that one.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I was tempted to approach this from a physics standpoint, but I couldn't even figure out how to explain it. You did a pretty good job.

One thing I would add: Due to the principle of uncertainty, nobody can ever know the outcome of every event (even though all events are based upon natural laws). As we discover more about quantum physics it seems that there is a great deal of chaos in the universe, and not as much order as we thought. Then there's that idea of order in chaos -- that a state of chaos is the most ordered state -- I still can't comprehend that one.

But is it really chaos? I'm not saying I'm right, but to me chaos is a good label for things that we don't understand.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

But is it really chaos? I'm not saying I'm right, but to me chaos is a good label for things that we don't understand.

It's definitely just a label. I don't know much about chaos, or the uncertainty principle, so I'm pretty much talking outta my ass. We are so obsessed with answers, we've got to make some up. I'm willing to believe we don't know, and that we made some lame excuse for being ignorant. Why can't we just be satisfied with not knowing? I like mysteries.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.

If we knew where every piece of matter was, and we could predict every reaction amongst every molecule, atom, and synapse in every animal's brain; wouldn't we essentially be omniscient beings?

You're essentially saying if we could get to that point, we'd be like a god. If we knew how EVERYTHING worked, and we could predict how it would work, then we could change how it worked (Neo in the Matrix). And if humans can predict and change all matters of science, then aren't we really exercising our own free will over the universe?

Knowledge is power.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

If we knew where every piece of matter was, and we could predict every reaction amongst every molecule, atom, and synapse in every animal's brain; wouldn't we essentially be omniscient beings?

You're essentially saying if we could get to that point, we'd be like a god. If we knew how EVERYTHING worked, and we could predict how it would work, then we could change how it worked (Neo in the Matrix). And if humans can predict and change all matters of science, then aren't we really exercising our own free will over the universe?

Knowledge is power.

No, I'm not at all saying we'd be like a god. A god creates or controls. By knowing everything there is to know about physics would not make us a god.

I never used the word "change". All I basically said was that if you knew how every piece of matter reacted to every single possible condition, you would be able to predict the future. It would be easy. Simple as y = 2x. If you knew what x was, you could reliably predict what y would be. It would just become a huge storyboard where everything is laid out and there is only one scenario for every situation.

Since our brains, and everything else known to us is composed of a matter that we think we understand, and can therefore can act only one way for each specific condition, then our brains are also controlled by simple physics. If we truly are controlled by nothing more than a physical world, how can we possibly think for ourselves when the very things we are composed of is not capable of doing more than one thing in one specific situation?

I'm not saying I believe this; I'm saying that if we are controlled solely by nothing more than what we can see (ie, no God), then this is how I believe we would be.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

No, I'm not at all saying we'd be like a god. A god creates or controls. By knowing everything there is to know about physics would not make us a god.

I never used the word "change". All I basically said was that if you knew how every piece of matter reacted to every single possible condition, you would be able to predict the future. It would be easy. Simple as y = 2x. If you knew what x was, you could reliably predict what y would be. It would just become a huge storyboard where everything is laid out and there is only one scenario for every situation.

Since our brains, and everything else known to us is composed of a matter that we think we understand, and can therefore can act only one way for each specific condition, then our brains are also controlled by simple physics. If we truly are controlled by nothing more than a physical world, how can we possibly think for ourselves when the very things we are composed of is not capable of doing more than one thing in one specific situation?

I'm not saying I believe this; I'm saying that if we are controlled solely by nothing more than what we can see (ie, no God), then this is how I believe we would be.

I know you didn't say anything about change. I did.

If you know everything, and can mathematically predict exactly how everything is going to react with each other, then you can do something to make any reaction happen that you want.

For example, we don't know everything about medicine. But we do know some things. For instance, we know what causes the flu. It's a virus. We know how it attacks our body and we know how it chemically multiplies. Because we know this, we were able to create a vaccine to prevent the flu from attacking our body. The knowledge of the flu enabled us to prevent it.

We also now know enough about genetics to be able to clone animals. We know how cells multiply and that if you use the same genetic code, you can recreate an exact copy of an organism. So what do we do with that knowledge? We clone cows and chickens for sale in our grocery store.

Now imagine we know EVERYTHING and can predict all human behavior in all instances, as well as all animal behavior in all instances. With that knowledge, we can intervene all we want, and make any reaction happen that we want. We'd essentially be all-powerful, exercising our own free will over anything we chose.

The story may be all laid out for us. But we'd be able to read it all. And we'd be able to rewrite the story in any way we see fit.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I know you didn't say anything about change. I did.

If you know everything, and can mathematically predict exactly how everything is going to react with each other, then you can do something to make any reaction happen that you want.

For example, we don't know everything about medicine. But we do know some things. For instance, we know what causes the flu. It's a virus. We know how it attacks our body and we know how it chemically multiplies. Because we know this, we were able to create a vaccine to prevent the flu from attacking our body. The knowledge of the flu enabled us to prevent it.

We also now know enough about genetics to be able to clone animals. We know how cells multiply and that if you use the same genetic code, you can recreate an exact copy of an organism. So what do we do with that knowledge? We clone cows and chickens for sale in our grocery store.

Now imagine we know EVERYTHING and can predict all human behavior in all instances, as well as all animal behavior in all instances. With that knowledge, we can intervene all we want, and make any reaction happen that we want. We'd essentially be all-powerful, exercising our own free will over anything we chose.

The story may be all laid out for us. But we'd be able to read it all. And we'd be able to rewrite the story in any way we see fit.

No. You're not understanding what I'm saying, yet.

All of this is a logical IFF, btw, dependent upon the existence of no God/Creator.

If we are nothing more than physical beings composed of physical matter, then we are nothing more. We cannot rewrite anything. We cannot learn anything. We do not have a free will. We cannot predict. We can do nothing on our own. We are simply compositions of matter and the resulting actions or reactions of said matter. Nothing more.

If everything is guided by physics and the properties of every building block to the universe is constant, then there is one and only one course of action all matter can take. Everything is dependent upon everything else (because everything influences everything, according to physics, correct?). There are no forks in the road. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Disclaimer - Again, I do not believe this. I'm just saying that if our world (not only Earth, but WORLD) is nothing more than a physical world, then this is how I believe it would be governed.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Once, I heard something pretty profound, and it kinda relates:

I was told that everything everyone does their first choice. Every action somebody performs is their first choice, given the circumstances. For example, a homeless person is homeless, because it's their choice -- not due to some external events.

Here's the reasoning:
Nobody does anything they don't want to do. Sure, there are things we don't want to do -- but if we do them, it's for a reason. Usually, when we do something we don't "want" to it's because we'd rather not face the consequences of neglecting to do them. Therefore, everything we do is because we choose to -- mostly because we are trying to avoid worse circumstances. So, a homeless person is homeless because they would rather not face the consequences/responsibilities of not being homeless. Their first choice is to be homeless.

This can be carried to the point of absurdity, so let's not get too literal. Of course my first choice would be to win the lottery and never work again. However, I choose to work everyday because the outcome is more predictable and more certain. Therefore, work is my first choice -- d'oh!

That's basically Hobbes.

The first time I heard it I thought it was bunk. Over time, though, I've come to realize that it is true. Everyone is supremely self-interested. Sometimes their interests are noble - they enjoy the feeling of helping others. However, they do what they do because it's their choice. I've yet to think up an exception, although I would love for there to be one.

[dmek25]

i was going to post something, but after reading some of this, i am not sure if im on this level. let me say, that i am not sure about predetermined fate. but on the flip side, i do think that good things happen to good people. if its those good people making it happen....

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i was going to post something, but after reading some of this, i am not sure if im on this level. let me say, that i am not sure about predetermined fate. but on the flip side, i do think that good things happen to good people. if its those good people making it happen....

Not intended as an argument, dmek, but good things happen to bad people with about as much regularity as good people. Bad things happen to good people with about as much regularity as bad people.

[BDBohnzie]

I'll stick with my trusty stand-by:

"Shit Happens"

Whether it's good shit, bad shit, or indifferent shit, shit happens. Does it happen for a reason? Sure. Does it happen because of fate? Sure. As far as I know, I'm along for this roller coaster ride called life, and whatever happens...happens.