Vince Young - Offensive Rookie of the Year

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Crat92

Are you SERIOUS? You can't be! Colston had a good year I'll give you that. Vince Young did more with less than any other rookie. You want the definition of overrated? Okay, how about Matt Lienart?! He had two pro bowl recievers and still couldn't get it done! Maybe if he would have done what VY did, Dennis Green would still have a job. Overrated please............stop hangin out with Merrill Hodge!

Leinart:
56.6% comp, 2542 yards passing, 11 pass tds, 12 ints. (11 full games)
Young:
51.7% comp, 2199 yards passing, 12 pass tds, 13 ints. (14 full games)

Leinart beats Young by 70+ passing yards a game, about .15 passing td's per game, and about 5% better comp %. Young got the Offensive ROY, and Leinart wasn't even an after thought...so who is overrated again??????

I'm not saying Leinart is a stud, but if you're going to call someone overrated, get your stats in order. If you call Leinart overrated, you must call Young overrated.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Leinart:
56.6% comp, 2542 yards passing, 11 pass tds, 12 ints. (11 full games)
Young:
51.7% comp, 2199 yards passing, 12 pass tds, 13 ints. (14 full games)

Leinart beats Young by 70+ passing yards a game, about .15 passing td's per game, and about 5% better comp %. Young got the Offensive ROY, and Leinart wasn't even an after thought...so who is overrated again??????

I'm not saying Leinart is a stud, but if you're going to call someone overrated, get your stats in order. If you call Leinart overrated, you must call Young overrated.

But I think Crat's argument is that Young did more with less.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

But I think Crat's argument is that Young did more with less.

T-E-A-M...it's all about team. Tennessee has more in my opinion...just cause Arizona has a couple good receivers doesn't mean they have more. Leinart ran for his life on every play.

ps- Edge James SUCKED this year...no running game = losses. Tennessee had a running game.

[Crat92]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

But I think Crat's argument is that Young did more with less.

Thank you TAFKAS. Exactly my point. I don't think those numbers Lienart put produced many victories, do you? It's about winning! Lienart didn't, Young did. Bottom line!

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Crat92

Thank you TAFKAS. Exactly my point. I don't think those numbers Lienart put produced many victories, do you? It's about winning! Lienart didn't, Young did. Bottom line!

Those numbers prove that if one is overrated, the other is too.

Nice to know that everyone thinks 1 guy makes the difference between an 8 win team and a 5 win team. Might as well not even field that many players since 1 player makes the difference for 3 wins. So if I had 4 vince youngs, I'd win 12 games...sweeeet.

Again, it's a TEAM effort.
Don't worry, I am positive that the rose colored glasses will come off with Young eventually...I was right about soooo many like him in the past, and I am right now. I know that sounds arrogant, but you guys aren't looking at the big picture.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Nice to know that everyone thinks 1 guy makes the difference between an 8 win team and a 5 win team. Might as well not even field that many players since 1 player makes the difference for 3 wins. So if I had 4 vince youngs, I'd win 12 games...sweeeet.

Again, it's a TEAM effort.
Don't worry, I am positive that the rose colored glasses will come off with Young eventually...I was right about soooo many like him in the past, and I am right now. I know that sounds arrogant, but you guys aren't looking at the big picture.

You do know that Young didn't start the first three games for the Titans right? Which also happened to be three losses and three possible games that VY did not have a chance to win a game. Which means VY was 8-5 his rookie campaign, including a 6 game win streak near the end. Oh yeah, he's only a freakin' rookie! How many rookie QBs with Travis Henry and Bo Scaife as your weapons would pull out an 8-5 record in the NFL?

Yet people want to hate on him for some reason, pointing out the defensive effort in the Jax game. What about the fact that the Titans beat nearly the entire NFC east, including a decimation of Philly at the Linc. How about the 2 TD performance to beat Indy? Oh, but he threw two picks and Bironas hit a 60 yd FG... let's not give any credit to the QB.

Instead of using red herring arguments ("if we had 4 vince youngs, we would win 12 games"), give some logical reasons why you think VY will fail. His throwing motion can definitely be improved, his passing percentage could be higher, etc.

If there are no such instances of one player making a difference, why do some teams actually play better when a switch is made at QB? I bet Tony Romo didn't have anything to do with giving his team a spark this season right? Me being an SC alum, there's no way you can tell me that Texas would have beaten SC in the Rose Bowl without VY least year... in fact, UT wouldn't have even made a BCS bowl last year without VY. That just shoots down your entire argument that one player can make a three win difference. Don't they also say that a steady kicker can make a two win difference in a season? It is a team effort (like you say), but one player can will that team effort (as has been proven time and time again). Fact: The Titans (as a team) do not go on a 6 game win streak with Billy Volek [edit: make that Kerry Collins] at the helm.

How are you so sure that you are right? I mean, I'm sure of some things too- but that doesn't mean there's not a small chance of others being right too... Are you truly saying that VY has no shot at being a great QB in this league? Obviously, he won the ROY for a reason- people that watch football chose him over Colston, MJD and Bush.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Instead of using red herring arguments ("if we had 4 vince youngs, we would win 12 games"), give some logical reasons why you think VY will fail. His throwing motion can definitely be improved, his passing percentage could be higher, etc.

Well, I have on many occasions. I don't remember all I posted on this thread, but there was another thread that said "Vince Young will be the greatest in a couple years" (or something close to that). I posted a lot of contradictory stats on that thread, and many pursuasive arguments.

If there are no such instances of one player making a difference, why do some teams actually play better when a switch is made at QB? I bet Tony Romo didn't have anything to do with giving his team a spark this season right? Me being an SC alum, there's no way you can tell me that Texas would have beaten SC in the Rose Bowl without VY least year... in fact, UT wouldn't have even made a BCS bowl last year without VY. That just shoots down your entire argument that one player can make a three win difference. Don't they also say that a steady kicker can make a two win difference in a season? It is a team effort (like you say), but one player can will that team effort (as has been proven time and time again). Fact: The Titans (as a team) do not go on a 6 game win streak with Billy Volek [edit: make that Kerry Collins] at the helm.

No, that's opinion. Just becuase the team played better under Young, doesn't mean it would not have happened under Volek or Collins. If a coach makes a midseason speech that encourages and energizes the team, does that coach single handedly win the rest of the season for the team? No. It's a team effort and the team has to decide to play well together or not.
I think you are thinking I am saying that Young had nothing to do with that run of wins...I'm not. Young was very much a shot in the arm for the Titans, and got them to play at a higher level. However, that alone does not warrent the rookie of the year award.

How are you so sure that you are right? I mean, I'm sure of some things too- but that doesn't mean there's not a small chance of others being right too... Are you truly saying that VY has no shot at being a great QB in this league? Obviously, he won the ROY for a reason- people that watch football chose him over Colston, MJD and Bush.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only way I could be wrong is if Vince realizes this is a passing league. When he works day in and day out on passing the ball and working on mechanics. McNabb is a prime example. McNabbs first season he passed for 49.1% in 99. It wasn't until 04, his 6th season, that he finally got with the program. His comp% went to an all time high of 64% and had more than 500 yards passing more than his previous career high. Plus went from 16 tds to 31 tds passing in a single season. His rushing numbers were basically cut in half. No coincidence, that was the year they went 13-3 and lost by only 3 in the super bowl.
McNabb was the kind that wanted to get better and took that negative and turned it into positive. I see Vince Young as the Micheal Vick kind that gets upset about people saying he can't pass, but is not willing to listen. I could be wrong. I hope I am, cause Vince can be one heck of a QB if he learns to throw. Vick will be nothing until he realizes that as well. The more people praise a kid gets even though his flaws are overwhelmingly glaring, the more he feels he needs to stick with what he's doing. What Vince did in college won't work in the NFL. Sure you can win 8-10 games with it with the right cast, but it will NEVER translate into a super bowl win.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

But I think Crat's argument is that Young did more with less.

And that's why Vince Young won hands down, he did more with less. Stack the stats as high as you want, no one had the impact on their team Vince Young had on his team.

I'll go a step further, remove LT and Brees from the equation for a minute, you could make a helluva argument for Young as MVP this year.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Leinart:
56.6% comp, 2542 yards passing, 11 pass tds, 12 ints. (11 full games)
Young:
51.7% comp, 2199 yards passing, 12 pass tds, 13 ints. (14 full games)

Leinart beats Young by 70+ passing yards a game, about .15 passing td's per game, and about 5% better comp %. Young got the Offensive ROY, and Leinart wasn't even an after thought...so who is overrated again??????

I'm not saying Leinart is a stud, but if you're going to call someone overrated, get your stats in order. If you call Leinart overrated, you must call Young overrated.

I'm sorry I have to jump in here.
jsarno - the stats you carefully picked are just passing stats. In the NFL, QB's are allowed to run - one of Young's finest moment was a 39-yard TD run in overtime to beat Houston. As much as you do not like it, it is true Qb's can run.
Vince ran the ball 83 times for 553 yards and 7 TD's. He averaged 6.7 yards a carry. Had a grand total of 19 TD's as compared to Leinarts 13 total TD's and Bush's 8.
You might be of the school of QB's should only be drop back passers and that is the only way to rate them. But there is so much more than passing, like leadership, reading defenses, calling audibles and making the decision to take off and RUN THE BALL.
Young took over a 0-3 team that was being lead by a veteran superbowl QB Kerry Collins. Vince Young came in at a desperate time for a losing team at the most important postion QB and turned the team around. Lead them to 8 wins. Nuff said.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I'm sorry I have to jump in here.
jsarno - the stats you carefully picked are just passing stats. In the NFL, QB's are allowed to run - one of Young's finest moment was a 39-yard TD run in overtime to beat Houston. As much as you do not like it, it is true Qb's can run.
Vince ran the ball 83 times for 553 yards and 7 TD's. He averaged 6.7 yards a carry. Had a grand total of 19 TD's as compared to Leinarts 13 total TD's and Bush's 8.
You might be of the school of QB's should only be drop back passers and that is the only way to rate them. But there is so much more than passing, like leadership, reading defenses, calling audibles and making the decision to take off and RUN THE BALL.
Young took over a 0-3 team that was being lead by a veteran superbowl QB Kerry Collins. Vince Young came in at a desperate time for a losing team at the most important postion QB and turned the team around. Lead them to 8 wins. Nuff said.

Again, my comment was to point out the flawed argument that one is "overrated" and the other isn't.
I do not beleive that a QB needs to be a pocket passer. In fact I am thrilled to death to see Campbell back there. I think he's got it all, just needs more practice. I would honestly take Campbell over Young at this point.
I think that Steve Young was the best QB the NFL has ever seen due to his ability to scramble. So it's not that at all. I just know you can't win without a QB that can throw. Vince, like Vick, only makes things happen with their legs, when they figure out it's a passing league, that is when they will be dangerous..and I will be the first in line to congratulate them on their hard work to overcome thier flaws. (just like McNabb)

[jsarno]

By the way, if it's all about wins, then Vince helped his team acheive 4 more wins than in 05...Bush helped his team win 7 more games. Almost double. AND Bush is still playing while Vince is not, AND Bush helped to rebuild a storm damaged city.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by jsarno

By the way, if it's all about wins, then Vince helped his team acheive 4 more wins than in 05...Bush helped his team win 7 more games. Almost double. AND Bush is still playing while Vince is not, AND Bush helped to rebuild a storm damaged city.

Trust me, I'm the biggest Reggie Bush fan there is... but i'm also not so much of an SC homer to believe that Young was way more valuable to his team's success than Bush was to his. Bush also had a second running back in Deuce McAllister, an All pro QB in Brees, a pretty good line (led by Jammal Brown), and a sick wideout corps of Colston, Henderson and Horn. You take Bush away from that team and I believe NO still gets into the playoffs this season, probably not as one of the top seeds though. The Titans have Travis Henry, Drew Bennett and Bo Scaife. Without Young, the Titans are not even fighting for a wildcard.

You have sound arguments re: Young's shortcomings... but ROY doesn't go to the best QB who has the best pure passing abilities. It goes to the best rookie, regardless of their techniques and tendencies. We can hypothesize all day about how the Titans would have fared without Young, but results speak for themselves- and Young did more with less.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Trust me, I'm the biggest Reggie Bush fan there is... but i'm also not so much of an SC homer to believe that Young was way more valuable to his team's success than Bush was to his. Bush also had a second running back in Deuce McAllister, an All pro QB in Brees, a pretty good line (led by Jammal Brown), and a sick wideout corps of Colston, Henderson and Horn. You take Bush away from that team and I believe NO still gets into the playoffs this season, probably not as one of the top seeds though. The Titans have Travis Henry, Drew Bennett and Bo Scaife. Without Young, the Titans are not even fighting for a wildcard.

You have sound arguments re: Young's shortcomings... but ROY doesn't go to the best QB who has the best pure passing abilities. It goes to the best rookie, regardless of their techniques and tendencies. We can hypothesize all day about how the Titans would have fared without Young, but results speak for themselves- and Young did more with less.

YES! You got it right, New Orleans has a Probowl QB, Deuce McAllister, and a great set of WR's. I can't even name Tennessee's WR's or OL.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

YES! You got it right, New Orleans has a Probowl QB, Deuce McAllister, and a great set of WR's. I can't even name Tennessee's WR's or OL.

WR Brandon Jones. Watch out for him next year.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

WR Brandon Jones. Watch out for him next year.

That kid has a ton of talent.