F... "Everything Happens for a Reason"

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

I'm going to try and attempt to discuss the free will/'everything happens for a reason' from two sides; religion and science.

(Before I posted, onlydarksets stole my thunder here.) From a faith based view, it is my understanding that most faiths have some sort of "God is all knowing" element built into them. If this is true, then God knows the future, which to me means that the future is predetermined.

From a science based view, we are nothing more than matter put together from its most finite, elemental, atomic form, correct? Now all of these pieces of our being have properties, etc. We then use these properties to base predictions on behavior of things that these things makeup. Such as this element combines with this other element and such and such will always happen. It's all based on physics, still.

Now human behavior, for some reason, doesn't fall into the physics realm with most people. Why not? We're all based from these elemental objects that we know the properties of. But you say we think and have thoughts that guide us. What are thoughts, though? If we truly are a science based, godless existence, then thoughts are just reactions within our brain due to all of the atoms being in the right place at the right time within our universe(s) and the reactions they have to those proximities and known reactions. So, everything is again predetermined.

If we understood physics well enough (maybe that alignment of existence will occur some day) we could create a giant mathematical formula that took all things into account (the placement of every piece of matter, the speed of said matter, the reactions of every matter with every type of matter, the reactions of that matter while traveling x speed while passing by y matter, etc etc etc etc etc) we could accurately predict every single reaction and movement (including the actions of the atoms in your head making you think about this post) to predict "the future". So this brings me back to fate. Is there really such a thing if we can, theoretically, predict every thought and subsequent reactionary movement we will make/do?

Sorry for this mis/loose use of some scientific terms.

If we knew where every piece of matter was, and we could predict every reaction amongst every molecule, atom, and synapse in every animal's brain; wouldn't we essentially be omniscient beings?

You're essentially saying if we could get to that point, we'd be like a god. If we knew how EVERYTHING worked, and we could predict how it would work, then we could change how it worked (Neo in the Matrix). And if humans can predict and change all matters of science, then aren't we really exercising our own free will over the universe?

Knowledge is power.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

And now some levity:

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

If we knew where every piece of matter was, and we could predict every reaction amongst every molecule, atom, and synapse in every animal's brain; wouldn't we essentially be omniscient beings?

You're essentially saying if we could get to that point, we'd be like a god. If we knew how EVERYTHING worked, and we could predict how it would work, then we could change how it worked (Neo in the Matrix). And if humans can predict and change all matters of science, then aren't we really exercising our own free will over the universe?

Knowledge is power.

No, I'm not at all saying we'd be like a god. A god creates or controls. By knowing everything there is to know about physics would not make us a god.

I never used the word "change". All I basically said was that if you knew how every piece of matter reacted to every single possible condition, you would be able to predict the future. It would be easy. Simple as y = 2x. If you knew what x was, you could reliably predict what y would be. It would just become a huge storyboard where everything is laid out and there is only one scenario for every situation.

Since our brains, and everything else known to us is composed of a matter that we think we understand, and can therefore can act only one way for each specific condition, then our brains are also controlled by simple physics. If we truly are controlled by nothing more than a physical world, how can we possibly think for ourselves when the very things we are composed of is not capable of doing more than one thing in one specific situation?

I'm not saying I believe this; I'm saying that if we are controlled solely by nothing more than what we can see (ie, no God), then this is how I believe we would be.

[saden1]

I would like to know why a big nail put a fat hole in my cars back tire last week? What's the rational behind that? Perhaps god decided that the guy running the repair shop I went to needed more customers.

Shit happens and god has nothing to do with it. If anything he/she/it is a spectators. And if you believe in the notion of "things happen for a reason" then I'd like to know what your take on fortune cookies and horoscope are.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

No, I'm not at all saying we'd be like a god. A god creates or controls. By knowing everything there is to know about physics would not make us a god.

I never used the word "change". All I basically said was that if you knew how every piece of matter reacted to every single possible condition, you would be able to predict the future. It would be easy. Simple as y = 2x. If you knew what x was, you could reliably predict what y would be. It would just become a huge storyboard where everything is laid out and there is only one scenario for every situation.

Since our brains, and everything else known to us is composed of a matter that we think we understand, and can therefore can act only one way for each specific condition, then our brains are also controlled by simple physics. If we truly are controlled by nothing more than a physical world, how can we possibly think for ourselves when the very things we are composed of is not capable of doing more than one thing in one specific situation?

I'm not saying I believe this; I'm saying that if we are controlled solely by nothing more than what we can see (ie, no God), then this is how I believe we would be.

I know you didn't say anything about change. I did.

If you know everything, and can mathematically predict exactly how everything is going to react with each other, then you can do something to make any reaction happen that you want.

For example, we don't know everything about medicine. But we do know some things. For instance, we know what causes the flu. It's a virus. We know how it attacks our body and we know how it chemically multiplies. Because we know this, we were able to create a vaccine to prevent the flu from attacking our body. The knowledge of the flu enabled us to prevent it.

We also now know enough about genetics to be able to clone animals. We know how cells multiply and that if you use the same genetic code, you can recreate an exact copy of an organism. So what do we do with that knowledge? We clone cows and chickens for sale in our grocery store.

Now imagine we know EVERYTHING and can predict all human behavior in all instances, as well as all animal behavior in all instances. With that knowledge, we can intervene all we want, and make any reaction happen that we want. We'd essentially be all-powerful, exercising our own free will over anything we chose.

The story may be all laid out for us. But we'd be able to read it all. And we'd be able to rewrite the story in any way we see fit.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I know you didn't say anything about change. I did.

If you know everything, and can mathematically predict exactly how everything is going to react with each other, then you can do something to make any reaction happen that you want.

For example, we don't know everything about medicine. But we do know some things. For instance, we know what causes the flu. It's a virus. We know how it attacks our body and we know how it chemically multiplies. Because we know this, we were able to create a vaccine to prevent the flu from attacking our body. The knowledge of the flu enabled us to prevent it.

We also now know enough about genetics to be able to clone animals. We know how cells multiply and that if you use the same genetic code, you can recreate an exact copy of an organism. So what do we do with that knowledge? We clone cows and chickens for sale in our grocery store.

Now imagine we know EVERYTHING and can predict all human behavior in all instances, as well as all animal behavior in all instances. With that knowledge, we can intervene all we want, and make any reaction happen that we want. We'd essentially be all-powerful, exercising our own free will over anything we chose.

The story may be all laid out for us. But we'd be able to read it all. And we'd be able to rewrite the story in any way we see fit.

No. You're not understanding what I'm saying, yet.

All of this is a logical IFF, btw, dependent upon the existence of no God/Creator.

If we are nothing more than physical beings composed of physical matter, then we are nothing more. We cannot rewrite anything. We cannot learn anything. We do not have a free will. We cannot predict. We can do nothing on our own. We are simply compositions of matter and the resulting actions or reactions of said matter. Nothing more.

If everything is guided by physics and the properties of every building block to the universe is constant, then there is one and only one course of action all matter can take. Everything is dependent upon everything else (because everything influences everything, according to physics, correct?). There are no forks in the road. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Disclaimer - Again, I do not believe this. I'm just saying that if our world (not only Earth, but WORLD) is nothing more than a physical world, then this is how I believe it would be governed.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

No. You're not understanding what I'm saying, yet.

All of this is a logical IFF, btw, dependent upon the existence of no God/Creator.

If we are nothing more than physical beings composed of physical matter, then we are nothing more. We cannot rewrite anything. We cannot learn anything. We do not have a free will. We cannot predict. We can do nothing on our own. We are simply compositions of matter and the resulting actions or reactions of said matter. Nothing more.

If everything is guided by physics and the properties of every building block to the universe is constant, then there is one and only one course of action all matter can take. Everything is dependent upon everything else (because everything influences everything, according to physics, correct?). There are no forks in the road. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Disclaimer - Again, I do not believe this. I'm just saying that if our world (not only Earth, but WORLD) is nothing more than a physical world, then this is how I believe it would be governed.

I don't understand why we couldn't rewrite things? Please explain that to me. If EVERYTHING is governed by physics and mathematical equations, why couldn't we get to a point where we COMPLETELY understand that mathematical equation?

Wouldn't that be the natural course of action? After all, we're doing research on physics and chemistry and medicine and genetics. We're learning more every day. Wouldn't the only course of action be that we try to figure everything out? And if everything is a mathematical equation, wouldn't we figure it all out eventually?

And once we did, couldn't we do what we wanted?

I get your logical premise: If everything is math, then there is only one answer. But I'm taking it a step further. If we figure out the mathematical equation, we could introduce variables to produce different results.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

No. You're not understanding what I'm saying, yet.

All of this is a logical IFF, btw, dependent upon the existence of no God/Creator.

If we are nothing more than physical beings composed of physical matter, then we are nothing more. We cannot rewrite anything. We cannot learn anything. We do not have a free will. We cannot predict. We can do nothing on our own. We are simply compositions of matter and the resulting actions or reactions of said matter. Nothing more.

If everything is guided by physics and the properties of every building block to the universe is constant, then there is one and only one course of action all matter can take. Everything is dependent upon everything else (because everything influences everything, according to physics, correct?). There are no forks in the road. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Disclaimer - Again, I do not believe this. I'm just saying that if our world (not only Earth, but WORLD) is nothing more than a physical world, then this is how I believe it would be governed.

Going back to your post, I'm noticing flaws in the logic, notably the bolded part.

Why can't we learn? The more research we do, the more we learn about the world.

Why can't we predict? We predict the weather with relative accuracy.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Going back to your post, I'm noticing flaws in the logic, notably the bolded part.

Why can't we learn? The more research we do, the more we learn about the world.

Why can't we predict? We predict the weather with relative accuracy.

You are still not understanding the fundamental principles I have laid out. You are thinking too high level. Start low and work your way up, keeping in mind the principles and fundamentals from the lower levels.

* It all starts with whether or not you believe we are totally based from a physical world with no God/Creator. If not, the following does not apply.
* There are basic building blocks to everything in our physical world.
* These building blocks/pieces have properties.
* These properties are constant. They do not act differently given the exact same situations. They only have one action for every situation.
* We are composed of these building blocks.
* The properties of these building blocks hold true while making up the composition of our being (mind, body) as well as everything around us and in the universe(s).
* Now if everything has only one and only action in accordance with the universe's current state, then there is only one [next] state that all matter in the universe can progress to. So forth and so forth. Basically a mathematical road map/storyboard.
* Now, our brain is made up of this matter that is (and can *only*, due to physics) act one way to a given state. So, essentially our brains are not acting on their own, but being controlled/reacting (as governed by physics) to the physical world around it. There is no thinking. There are no cognitive actions/reactions.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

You are still not understanding the fundamental principles I have laid out. You are thinking too high level. Start low and work your way up, keeping in mind the principles and fundamentals from the lower levels.

* It all starts with whether or not you believe we are totally based from a physical world with no God/Creator. If not, the following does not apply.
* There are basic building blocks to everything in our physical world.
* These building blocks/pieces have properties.
* These properties are constant. They do not act differently given the exact same situations. They only have one action for every situation.
* We are composed of these building blocks.
* The properties of these building blocks hold true while making up the composition of our being (mind, body) as well as everything around us and in the universe(s).
* Now if everything has only one and only action in accordance with the universe's current state, then there is only one [next] state that all matter in the universe can progress to. So forth and so forth. Basically a mathematical road map/storyboard.
* Now, our brain is made up of this matter that is (and can *only*, due to physics) act one way to a given state. So, essentially our brains are not acting on their own, but being controlled/reacting (as governed by physics) to the physical world around it. There is no thinking. There are no cognitive actions/reactions.

Yeah I definitely follow. But the last * is just bad logic.

Our brains may be controlled by the physical world in which we live. And I follow the point that if we see something happen, our brain reacts by learning how it happens. The physics in our brain create a record of what we saw, and the physics in our brain create a synaptic response that tells us, hey, if A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

The one natural course of action, which was guided by physics and mathematical equations, led to the only possibility: our brain creating a synaptic response telling us that A = C.

Now over time, the only course of action physics allows will be that our brains create more and more synaptic responses, telling us that we've figured out more of the physics of the universe.

We are learning. It's just that learning IS the natural course of physics for us humans. And I ask you, what happens when we learn everything?

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah I definitely follow. But the last * is just bad logic.

Our brains may be controlled by the physical world in which we live. And I follow the point that if we see something happen, our brain reacts by learning how it happens. The physics in our brain create a record of what we saw, and the physics in our brain create a synaptic response that tells us, hey, if A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

The one natural course of action, which was guided by physics and mathematical equations, led to the only possibility: our brain creating a synaptic response telling us that A = C.

Now over time, the only course of action physics allows will be that our brains create more and more synaptic responses, telling us that we've figured out more of the physics of the universe.

We are learning. It's just that learning IS the natural course of physics for us humans. And I ask you, what happens when we learn everything?

It's not bad logic. It's you having a varying opinion than me on whether or not in a truly physical world things composed of matter can be intelligent.

IMO, in a completely physical world, everything is guided by it's surroundings based solely on physics. There are no intelligent thoughts or thought processes.

But this is all fruitless as I don't even believe it.

I do not believe we live in a physical world, believe that I walk daily with God, believe things happen for a reason, and believe that it is not stupid for a football player to ride ATVs in the offseason.

Last post in this thread for me!

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

It's not bad logic. It's you having a varying opinion than me on whether or not in a truly physical world things composed of matter can be intelligent.

IMO, in a completely physical world, everything is guided by it's surroundings based solely on physics. There are no intelligent thoughts or thought processes.

But this is all fruitless as I don't even believe it.

I do not believe we live in a physical world, believe that I walk daily with God, believe things happen for a reason, and believe that it is not stupid for a football player to ride ATVs in the offseason.

Last post in this thread for me!

Alright well at least you have a cute dog. At least she's cute until she grows into a giant beast!

I'm following the logic. It's just that the physical world contains a certain combinations of chemicals and physical properties that give rise to a human brain capable of thoughts and the ability for a human being to gain knowledge and react to that knowledge. That may be physics doing it, but it gives us the power to kick a ball and put it in motion if we wish. Physics gives us the power to make other physical things happen.

It was a fun discussion because it made me think of the Matrix. Neo could see and change everything. I love that movie.