Now we know why Brunell kept dinking and dunking

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by htownskinfan

I agree with you on the part about the front office,but i dont agree with you about brunell,he knew he was hurt the first yr and didnt say anything{or if he did thats just another screwup by the powers that be)and I think he knew something wasnt right with him this yr,playing with pain is one thing,but playing with pain to the detriment of the team is another

Can we agree upon the fact that if the coaches are unaware of an injury (presumably because said player doesn't disclose it), his performance should be graded as if he wasn't injured? Great, thanks.

Jamf notes that Mark Brunell outperformed Jason Campbell this year. I'm going to assume you agree because you do not dispute his point. So regardless of some injury, why in the heck would you want Gibbs and Co. to NOT be playing our best 11 offensive players. To me, if he was playing JC from the start, given our sky high expectations this year, and we ended up going 4-12, that would be far more damning to me than failing to disclose an injury to the media.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by jamf

Brunell is a class act and a Business man. He is not going to step away from gauranteed money. No one would. I don't want to hear people say he should restructor and retire. The team screwed up and signed him to a large contract. Mark did his part, Now the team has to live up to it. .

No they don't. NFL contracts aren't guaranteed. I am sure you know this, but I can't believe you are really advocating executing our salary cap and roster based on honor or whatever? Mark Shouldn't be expected to give back any money for the same reasons the Skins should have no compunction about cutting him loose. It's a business. Otherwise, maybe we should give Stephen Davis a little extra money.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

No they don't. NFL contracts aren't guaranteed. I am sure you know this, but I can't believe you are really advocating executing our salary cap and roster based on honor or whatever? Mark Shouldn't be expected to give back any money for the same reasons the Skins should have no compunction about cutting him loose. It's a business. Otherwise, maybe we should give Stephen Davis a little extra money.

If we cut Brunell we save something like 1.5 million for next season. Is there a backup out there who is better for this offense than MB who we can sign for 1.5 or less? It would have to be a Todd Collins like contract given to a far better QB.

[jamf]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

No they don't. NFL contracts aren't guaranteed. I am sure you know this, but I can't believe you are really advocating executing our salary cap and roster based on honor or whatever? Mark Shouldn't be expected to give back any money for the same reasons the Skins should have no compunction about cutting him loose. It's a business. Otherwise, maybe we should give Stephen Davis a little extra money.

I do know that contracts arent gauranteed. I meant his Signing bonus and the cap hit we would take if we did cut him. Some people want him to restructor just we can cut him...

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jamf

I'm tired of the brunell bashing.
He ran the team the way JG wanted him to. He did an OK job with the way the other 10 guys played.
MB had to deal with all the bullshit from Gibbs/Saunders, WR Corp, Crappy Line Play, and Defence getting blown out.

MB had a higher Yards Per attempt Average and More plays over than 20 yards( Ave per game) than JC.

I'm glad the switch to JC was made. Now we can move on to a new era. But, MB played better than JC. JC didn't throw downfield either, he dumped off to Cooley and still missed those throws!

Brunell is a class act and a Business man. He is not going to step away from gauranteed money. No one would. I don't want to hear people say he should restructor and retire. The team screwed up and signed him to a large contract. Mark did his part, Now the team has to live up to it. I'm tired of players holding out and I'm tired of fans expecting players to give back money when they can no longer play just because its right for the team.

It's time to redirect the blame from Brunell to the front office.

For clarification: what blame are you speaking of? For the season on the whole or a specific event?

[jamf]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

For clarification: what blame are you speaking of? For the season on the whole or a specific event?

We would crucify a player that took himself out of a game for non visible injury.
Could you imagine what we would say if brunell took himself out of a game in the 4th quarter saying his arm wasnt there today.

JG has the responsibility of starting the best QB for the team each week. He clearly thought it was brunell regardless of injury.
Gibbs, the QB coach and Saunders see all of MB's throws in practice. They should be able to tell if he had an injured arm.

Btw, Do people honestly want Todd Collins on the roster next year?

Postcount ++;

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jamf

Btw, Do people honestly want Todd Collins on the roster next year?

As the 3rd QB... sure why not?

He knows this offense and can be a valuable asset for Campbell as he continues to learn the offense.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by jamf

We would crucify a player that took himself out of a game for non visible injury.
Could you imagine what we would say if brunell took himself out of a game in the 4th quarter saying his arm wasnt there today.

JG has the responsibility of starting the best QB for the team each week. He clearly thought it was brunell regardless of injury.
Gibbs, the QB coach and Saunders see all of MB's throws in practice. They should be able to tell if he had an injured arm.

Btw, Do people honestly want Todd Collins on the roster next year?

Postcount ++;

I think we did rag on a player who took themself out of a game this year but I can't remember who it was or if they played for the Skins. If you look at the number MB moved the ball as well as JC and we had to give him the chance to get the job done. We had to many other factors which cost us games to know if he hurt us while in the game. We switched QB at the right time and I feel JC will improve with more time. If the coaches would have started JC lets say after game 2 and lost as many games as he did when he did start everyone would be yelling about why did we make a change at QB.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by jamf

MB had a higher Yards Per attempt Average and More plays over than 20 yards( Ave per game) than JC.

I'm glad the switch to JC was made. Now we can move on to a new era. But, MB played better than JC. JC didn't throw downfield either, he dumped off to Cooley and still missed those throws!

I think the statistics in this situation are a bit misleading. The Brunell guys like to throw around his high completion percentage and efficiency, but there were obvious shortcomings from Brunell's play that were exposed once Cambell took over.

The main problem that people had with Brunell was the dink and dunks. Brunell may have had more 20+ yard completions, but how many of those were actually passes over 20 yards? Usually it was an 8 yard pass that was YACed for more by the receiver. Teams didn't respect Brunell's ability to throw deep, which forced Portis to run with eight in the box, 90% of the time. Campbell comes in, and teams are forced to respect the deep ball. Betts benefits directly from this and has a pretty good season, because teams are only able to commit 5 or 6 to the run. Otherwise, they'd be scorched over the top by Campbell.

And who gives a shit about efficiency and yards per attempt, when all it means is Brunell will efficiently lose if Washington gets behind in the game? At least with Campbell, I know he's going to make every attempt to win the game. I was at the end of the season debacle against the Giants, and if it was Brunell going into the fourth quarter down by 14, I would have left. Since Campbell was playing I had hope, and he led two fourth quarter touchdown drives. Brunell would have found ways to take sacks or throw it away on 4th down.

[jamf]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I think the statistics in this situation are a bit misleading. The Brunell guys like to throw around his high completion percentage and efficiency, but there were obvious shortcomings from Brunell's play that were exposed once Cambell took over.

The main problem that people had with Brunell was the dink and dunks. Brunell may have had more 20+ yard completions, but how many of those were actually passes over 20 yards? Usually it was an 8 yard pass that was YACed for more by the receiver. Teams didn't respect Brunell's ability to throw deep, which forced Portis to run with eight in the box, 90% of the time. Campbell comes in, and teams are forced to respect the deep ball. Betts benefits directly from this and has a pretty good season, because teams are only able to commit 5 or 6 to the run. Otherwise, they'd be scorched over the top by Campbell.

And who gives a shit about efficiency and yards per attempt, when all it means is Brunell will efficiently lose if Washington gets behind in the game? At least with Campbell, I know he's going to make every attempt to win the game. I was at the end of the season debacle against the Giants, and if it was Brunell going into the fourth quarter down by 14, I would have left. Since Campbell was playing I had hope, and he led two fourth quarter touchdown drives. Brunell would have found ways to take sacks or throw it away on 4th down.

And I think he got 1 win out of those TD drives.
Campbell missed too many throws, And most were easy ones to make.

Who cares about efficientcy? Campbell was under 50% on third down plays. That means no long drives without a 50+ yard play. Can we honestly rely on huge gains for scoring every game?

Who cares about Yard Per attempt? It proves that campbell dinks and dunks it as much as MB, And thats with the safeties playing deep!

Also,Brunell Didnt take many sacks. Actually he was sacked less than JC.
and no one throws the ball away on fourth down...

I agree that the running game benefited from campbell being in there.

But campbells short coming are he is inaccurate and throws the ball to defenders. Hopefully that will be fixed with another year. But he did not play better than brunell, IMO.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by jamf

And I think he got 1 win out of those TD drives.
Campbell missed too many throws, And most were easy ones to make.

Who cares about efficientcy? Campbell was under 50% on third down plays. That means no long drives without a 50+ yard play. Can we honestly rely on huge gains for scoring every game?

Who cares about Yard Per attempt? It proves that campbell dinks and dunks it as much as MB, And thats with the safeties playing deep!

Also,Brunell Didnt take many sacks. Actually he was sacked less than JC.
and no one throws the ball away on fourth down...

The only legitimate knock on Campbell so far is his completion percentage, which should get better with experience. The beloved Mark Brunell's completion percentage was a combined 51% in his first two seasons.

As far as sacks, yes Brunell had less, but that's because Brunell would throw the ball away as soon as a defender was within 3 yards of him. Campbell will stand in and take a shot if it means he has a chance to make a play.

Turnovers? Brunell, had four picks which is actually higher than I expected considering he never took chances. Campbell who made his professional debut this season had six. A few of them were bad reads but again, it's to be expected. Brunell put the ball on the ground five times and lost one. Campbell put the ball on the ground once and lost none.

I swear, it seems like some of you Brunell lovers didn't even watch the games, and are basing your entire argument on his numbers which are adequate at best. A quarterback who's only goal is not to lose his starting job is not the type of player I want leading my team.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

The only legitimate knock on Campbell so far is his completion percentage, which should get better with experience. The beloved Mark Brunell's completion percentage was a combined 51% in his first two seasons.

As far as sacks, yes Brunell had less, but that's because Brunell would throw the ball away as soon as a defender was within 3 yards of him. Campbell will stand in and take a shot if it means he has a chance to make a play.

Turnovers? Brunell, had four picks which is actually higher than I expected considering he never took chances. Campbell who made his professional debut this season had six. A few of them were bad reads but again, it's to be expected. Brunell put the ball on the ground five times and lost one. Campbell put the ball on the ground once and lost none.

I swear, it seems like some of you Brunell lovers didn't even watch the games, and are basing your entire argument on his numbers which are adequate at best. A quarterback who's only goal is not to lose his starting job is not the type of player I want leading my team.

I really don't think you should be questioning whether anyone who has anything positive to say about MB's on field performance watched the games. It makes it seem personal. Plus, you know as well as I do that everyone on this fourm watches the games when they can.

I absolutely agree that Campbell's completion percentage will increase with more expierience. The reason why it will increase is because he will begin to do some of the things that Brunell, a seasoned vet, was doing this year. When he takes the underneath guy as it's given to him, he will complete a higher percentage. By completing a higher percentage, he will also complete more yards/attempt, which makes sense, because the goal of passing is to get as many yards as you can on a per pass basis. Higher YPA=good passer, lower YPA=poor passer. Yeah, thats oversimplifing...a lot, but if a guy throws for over a yard more per pass in the exact same system as another, there is little question of who played better.

We can go over all day about how Brunell got his yards by throwing underneath and having the recievers get YAC, but Campbell had the same luxury. It was the same offensive system.

At some point very early next season (a few games in), I would expect Campbell to improve to a level beyond where Mark Brunell's steady play is right now. But we shouldn't be crucifing Gibbs for any decision made with the QBs this year.

It's a good thing JC got some playing time this year, because it puts our offense in great position for next year, but we might have sacrificed a ballgame or two in doing so. Campbell's two best games came in losses.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by jamf

I'm tired of the brunell bashing.
He ran the team the way JG wanted him to. He did an OK job with the way the other 10 guys played.
MB had to deal with all the bullshit from Gibbs/Saunders, WR Corp, Crappy Line Play, and Defence getting blown out.

MB had a higher Yards Per attempt Average and More plays over than 20 yards( Ave per game) than JC.

I'm glad the switch to JC was made. Now we can move on to a new era. But, MB played better than JC. JC didn't throw downfield either, he dumped off to Cooley and still missed those throws!

Brunell is a class act and a Business man. He is not going to step away from gauranteed money. No one would. I don't want to hear people say he should restructor and retire. The team screwed up and signed him to a large contract. Mark did his part, Now the team has to live up to it. I'm tired of players holding out and I'm tired of fans expecting players to give back money when they can no longer play just because its right for the team.

Here is another potential problem: If we cut him, will we have to pay extra for an injury settlement? He was hurt in a game...

It's time to redirect the blame from Brunell to the front office.

Is this post a joke? Seriously...

Crappy line play? Statistically they were one of the top lines in the league.

Brunell played better than Campbell? JC didn't throw downfield? He threw more bombs in one half than Brunell did all year.

Seriously, I will give you $300 for an ounce of what you are smoking.

[jamf]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

Is this post a joke? Seriously...

Crappy line play? Statistically they were one of the top lines in the league.

Brunell played better than Campbell? JC didn't throw downfield? He threw more bombs in one half than Brunell did all year.

Seriously, I will give you $300 for an ounce of what you are smoking.

No it's not a joke.

Brunell Completed more passes for 20+ yards(by almost double). They both Dink and Dunked all day.
Brunell throw for more yard per game than campbell with less interceptions.

I will agree that the safeties backed off when JC came in, Which created room for Betts. But on 3rd downs, JC had a 71 QB rating while MB had a 90. He couldnt make plays.

Joe Gibbs wanted a QB who could manage the game and hope the gamebreakers made enough plays to put of points. In that type of system, MB was the better QB.

With that said, It's time to move on. I hope JC is the next Tom Brady or Montana. All of his flaws can be fixed with a good QB coach.
Btw, I think we need a real QB coach not lazor. I guess I will bring this up in another thread.

[firstdown]

I just remember who that player was who took themself out of the game in the 4th and it was Micheal Vick and people gave him a hard time for doing so.