Civil Discussion About Religion

[724Skinsfan]

Straight up, Ghetto. Choosing to be a christian just to have an assurance that you'll enjoy a good afterlife is a hypocritical perspective. You should live your life as a christian would because that in itself is the right thing to do not because of some reward system.

A question I ask myself from time to time is "If I knew that there was no afterlife, would I continue being a decent person who tries to be selfless, generous and helpful?" I'm pleased to know that I would. The "good" is within me and is my choice to act on.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

Straight up, Ghetto. Choosing to be a christian just to have an assurance that you'll enjoy a good afterlife is a hypocritical perspective. You should live your life as a christian would because that in itself is the right thing to do not because of some reward system.

A question I ask myself from time to time is "If I knew that there was no afterlife, would I continue being a decent person who tries to be selfless, generous and helpful?" I'm pleased to know that I would. The "good" is within me and is my choice to act on.

But that's how the believers have to sell it. If there was no "reward" in the afterlife, what could they possibly do to convince people to believe?

It's the very oldest trick in the book - selling fear. And what has been Mankind's biggest fear since we've had the capability to think?

That's right -- 'what happens when we die?'

Some very clever-minded, entreprenurial person came up with the grandest reward for following some simple rules (along with some money, of course ) -- and oh, by the way ... if you don't, you'll burn in hell!

I think it was Voltaire who said, "The first priest was the first rogue, who encountered the first fool."

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

But that's how the believers have to sell it. If there was no "reward" in the afterlife, what could they possibly do to convince people to believe?

What, peace and civility as well as love for Man is not good enough? You feel Christians need to "sell it".
Trust me when I say, there is nothing to sell. You either believe or you don't. You will always make excuses not to believe, and not a single one to believe. That's your choice. Enjoy.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by jsarno

What, peace and civility as well as love for Man is not good enough? You feel Christians need to "sell it".
Trust me when I say, there is nothing to sell. You either believe or you don't. You will always make excuses not to believe, and not a single one to believe. That's your choice. Enjoy.

I responded to a retort regarding this quote by you:

"Why would you choose a path (not believing) that has absolutely no chance (that's 0%) of having a positive affect after death?"

Certainly, peace, civility, and love of your fellow man are also aspects of religion. But the predominant tenent of Christianity was Christ dying for the sins of man, so he can ascend into heaven. I've always thought that the purpose of organized religion is to amass as many members as possible, and to collect as much money as possible -- with the idea that if you live by a certain set of rules you'll be rewarded in the afterlife.

If you disagree with my thought, that's fine. I'm simply saying that's the way I've always seen it.

Since the dawn of man, when we evolved into a species whose brain developed to the point of the capability of cognitive thought; the fear of death, and what happens to us when we die is the single most perplexing and horrifying question we have ever faced. Someone came along with an idea to ease our fears, who claimed to know all the answers from a Supreme Being, and sold to all who were desperate for those answers a grand scheme for eternal life in paradise. I'm not saying that person was Jesus Christ -- those themes had been around long before the beginnings of Christianity.

In my mind, religion has been both a tool of the clever to prey upon the weak, just as it has been a force for good, and a philosophy by which we can strive for a purpose that's higher than ourselves.

I go back and forth with it. Sometimes I pray, sometimes I'm a card-carrying atheist. Just depends on my mood. It's a question we all have to ask and answer for ourselves. But it's not a question of "making excuses not to believe" -- sometimes, people just can't believe it.

[RobH4413]

Just got home from work- Thought beemnseven had some good point...

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Is it also possible that there is one right religion, sure... I just don't know which one it is, and wonder why so many people can be so sure that theirs is it.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

Just got home from work- Thought beemnseven had some good point...

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Is it also possible that there is one right religion, sure... I just don't know which one it is, and wonder why so many people can be so sure that theirs is it.

Yeah, the penalty for not believing seems a bit extreme for what everyone says is a loving God.

So ... when the originator of the concept of religion came up with the incentives for getting a pass to this alternate dimension, where the streets are paved with gold, and you get to live with everyone you've ever loved for all eternity, somewhere along the way, they realized that wasn't enough. There had to be a threat involved. That's when the concept of Hell was created. "Believe what I tell you, and you will live in paradise when you die -- but if you don't, you will descend into an awful place full of pain, agony, suffering, and flames."

If you think about it, everything adds up...

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

Just got home from work- Thought beemnseven had some good point...

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Is it also possible that there is one right religion, sure... I just don't know which one it is, and wonder why so many people can be so sure that theirs is it.

Help me clarify Rob,
are you the 100% pure person? or who is? metaphor?
In the next paragraph, who are you referring to? Who exploited people?
Just curious, thanx



How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Help me clarify Rob,
are you the 100% pure person? or who is? metaphor?
In the next paragraph, who are you referring to? Who exploited people?
Just curious, thanx



How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Yeah, sorry... it was 4:00am when I wrote this...

I was referring to those kind of people that exploit people in general. They've always been here, and always will be here. So it's not hard to fathom that some random guy, or group of people, decided to make a religion and exploit a populations fear of death into some scam.

Secondly to clarify about a 100% pure person...I was speaking about the possibility that someone purely good can't go to heaven according to certain religions.

If Ghandi, for example, didn't believe in god and helped millions of people how could he not go to heaven? How could someone to fit every definition of what is a good person is in certain religions not reach the ultimate reward? Why is having faith so important?

In a world as confusing as this one is, it's hard to understand why faith is what gets you in. However, I do see faith as an important concept in general, but not necessarily in god par se.

In some ways, we all have to have "faith". If we were total skeptics about everything we would get nothing accomplished. We have to have faith that doing what's good is the right thing.

There really is no empirical evidence, aside from being raised a particular way or another, that doing "good" is right at all... so the concept of faith isn't totally unfamiliar.

See Leap of faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . My philosophy teacher in high school totally broke the whole class down for a month. Made us all total skeptics, and then in the end... presented the "leap of faith" above and it blew us all away. I thought it was pretty cool.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

Yeah, sorry... it was 4:00am when I wrote this...

I was referring to those kind of people that exploit people in general. They've always been here, and always will be here. So it's not hard to fathom that some random guy, or group of people, decided to make a religion and exploit a populations fear of death into some scam.

Secondly to clarify about a 100% pure person...I was speaking about the possibility that someone purely good can't go to heaven according to certain religions.

If Ghandi, for example, didn't believe in god and helped millions of people how could he not go to heaven? How could someone to fit every definition of what is a good person is in certain religions not reach the ultimate reward? Why is having faith so important?

In a world as confusing as this one is, it's hard to understand why faith is what gets you in. However, I do see faith as an important concept in general, but not necessarily in god par se.

In some ways, we all have to have "faith". If we were total skeptics about everything we would get nothing accomplished. We have to have faith that doing what's good is the right thing.

There really is no empirical evidence, aside from being raised a particular way or another, that doing "good" is right at all... so the concept of faith isn't totally unfamiliar.

See Leap of faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . My philosophy teacher in high school totally broke the whole class down for a month. Made us all total skeptics, and then in the end... presented the "leap of faith" above and it blew us all away. I thought it was pretty cool.

No person can be 100% pure. It's impossible. That aside, I actually understand exactly where you're coming from. That's why I said my comments about grace in a previous post, and comments about "why do all the religions have the same common demoninator in God with several different saviors?"
I also look at it like this, if God loves us unconditionally, then why would he set us up for certain doom. Maybe, just maybe, the bible is a way of scaring us straight. Kind of like when you parents said "you'll get hairy palms if you masterbate (or go blind)", or "if you take a hit of marijuana, you'll die". etc. Their intentions are honorable, but they are trying to scare you from doing something that could hurt you.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by jsarno

No person can be 100% pure. It's impossible. That aside, I actually understand exactly where you're coming from. That's why I said my comments about grace in a previous post, and comments about "why do all the religions have the same common demoninator in God with several different saviors?"
I also look at it like this, if God loves us unconditionally, then why would he set us up for certain doom. Maybe, just maybe, the bible is a way of scaring us straight. Kind of like when you parents said "you'll get hairy palms if you masterbate (or go blind)", or "if you take a hit of marijuana, you'll die". etc. Their intentions are honorable, but they are trying to scare you from doing something that could hurt you.

It was an exaggeration to emphasize a point...


Organized religions are human institutions. Anything human is always very, very corrupt. You can look at governments to understand that. I'm not saying that they're totally evil things, but I think they do alot more harm then most people can come to terms with.

Your second point I tend to agree with. If you look at every religion, you'll find a similar path; be God like. This is taken both literally and metaphorically in some religions... where some believe that one will become god and lose their individuality, or that we are to look to a "God" as a guide to live by.

Christianity is living like Jesus, and Jesus is in-fact God.

I hate to bring the same quote from earlier in the thread, but..

Originally Posted by 311

In times of trouble
Everyone joins a team
No one waves a flag
For all human beings
No one's excited
Unless they are divided
Someone's going to have to give
It seems uncertain
I'd like to be
One of the faithful millions
But what I see
Is an excuse for the killing

Your denomination
Should be a private thing
How about a spirit
For all human beings
How could something well guided
Turn out to be divisive
Mostly wondering
It seems uncertain

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I also look at it like this, if God loves us unconditionally, then why would he set us up for certain doom. Maybe, just maybe, the bible is a way of scaring us straight. Kind of like when you parents said "you'll get hairy palms if you masterbate (or go blind)", or "if you take a hit of marijuana, you'll die". etc. Their intentions are honorable, but they are trying to scare you from doing something that could hurt you.

By that logic, the Bible and/or religion is a set of lies to "scare us straight" -- albeit with honorable intentions. Yet, isn't lying a sin? That is a contradiction.

EDIT: you did say "kind of like when your parents...", so I guess it was just a bad example.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

That's always been one of my big gripes with religion.

This crap about non-believers going to hell is all about controlling people with fear.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

That's always been one of my big gripes with religion.

This crap about non-believers going to hell is all about controlling people with fear.

That's maybe the coolest thing about it. Not one opinon, be it scientific, evolutionist, creationist can be PROOF POSITIVE substanciated.
By the time we figure out the truth, it may be to late, depending what you believe.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

The "good" is within me and is my choice to act on.

Yes. To me, God doesn't exist because he inspired some people to write things, or because of any prophets, or because of any religion. All of those things just seem to distract from the REAL: God. The greatest evidence of God is our inner conscience. I believe that "good" inside you IS God. That "good" inside you, is inside me also -- and it's the same. It's not like there's a God for every person. IMO, we all share the same God, and he lives in all of us.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

Straight up, Ghetto. Choosing to be a christian just to have an assurance that you'll enjoy a good afterlife is a hypocritical perspective. You should live your life as a christian would because that in itself is the right thing to do not because of some reward system.

A question I ask myself from time to time is "If I knew that there was no afterlife, would I continue being a decent person who tries to be selfless, generous and helpful?" I'm pleased to know that I would. The "good" is within me and is my choice to act on.

No one is saying the only reason you should be a christian is to have an afterlife.
I merely asked the question why you would choose a path that can't possibly help you, only harm you. Seems a little "dee, de, deeee" to me.