Tom "Iceman" Brady

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

But ultimately these guys are judged on winning championships, and right now Brady is up there with Montana and Manning with Marino.

Very true, and even more unfortunate.

[Hail2theskins]

Look people Im not arguing against brady, ive never said he wasnt good, but IMO hes not at the same level as the greats yet, i think its a little premature to be putting him up with all time greats because he has simply not had the longevity of them. I said earlier when he comes out and does it for his whole career then yes he will be up there with the greats, but until then im not going to put him on the same level as marino and montana. And defensewins, id think with a name like that youd understand the concept of a team winning, not just one man, yes hes a great leader and shows good poise, but strictly when it comes to playing your posistion im not ready to throw him up there with the ranks of the NFL all time elite. People constantly say that steve young was one of the best leaders in the NFL of all time, Ill put Brady's leadership abilities up there with youngs but strictly as a player Im not sitting him up there with the big dogs yet.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Hail2theskins

Look people Im not arguing against brady, ive never said he wasnt good, but IMO hes not at the same level as the greats yet, i think its a little premature to be putting him up with all time greats because he has simply not had the longevity of them. I said earlier when he comes out and does it for his whole career then yes he will be up there with the greats, but until then im not going to put him on the same level as marino and montana. And defensewins, id think with a name like that youd understand the concept of a team winning, not just one man, yes hes a great leader and shows good poise, but strictly when it comes to playing your posistion im not ready to throw him up there with the ranks of the NFL all time elite. People constantly say that steve young was one of the best leaders in the NFL of all time, Ill put Brady's leadership abilities up there with youngs but strictly as a player Im not sitting him up there with the big dogs yet.

I picked the name defensewins BECAUSE of today's media and fans that only care about offense, scoring and stats. The ones that say a game is ugly if it a low scoring game.
I was floored by Dan Marino's post game comment after the Pats win when he said ' that was an ugly game by both teams". NO Dan, it was agreat game by two great defenses. Great defenses make offenses look bad on occasion. Dan wouldn;t know that because he never played on a team with a good defense. Those were the two best defenses facing each other yet in these playoffs. It was awesome game, not ugly. Dan Marino is a moron.
Today's media and fans have lost the art of a fine defense. It bothers me when the NFL changes rules to give advantages to offenses because it will improve ratings to the Attenition defeciet Disoder fans of today that know very little about football. You know the ones that only cheer when there is a TD because they do not understand the rest of the game.

Which brings me to a very important fact for you big stats guys. Manning is setting all of these records with rules limiting the defenses play like the five yards no constact rule and the lame roughing the passer rule. As little as 15 years ago defenses held up receivers and Qb's got pounded. Montana and Marino played in a much tougher NFL. Todays offensive records need to have a big * next to them.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Which brings me to a very important fact for you big stats guys. Manning is setting all of these records with rules limiting the defenses play like the five yards no constact rule and the lame roughing the passer rule. As little as 15 years ago defenses held up receivers and Qb's got pounded. Montana and Marino played in a much tougher NFL. Todays offensive records need to have a big * next to them.

Not that I disagree with you, but the game has changed as years have gone by anyway. That would kind of discredit people like Monk from getting in the Hall of Fame.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Not that I disagree with you, but the game has changed as years have gone by anyway. That would kind of discredit people like Monk from getting in the Hall of Fame.

No I think it would help Monk. It was much tougher to be a WR in the NFL in the 80's and early 90's than it is today. in the mid to late 90's the NFL changed the rules to help offense pass the ball more, so now the league has turned into amore of a passing league.
Now with these lame roughing the passer rules it really is giving them an advantage.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

No I think it would help Monk. It was much tougher to be a WR in the NFL in the 80's and early 90's than it is today. in the mid to late 90's the NFL changed the rules to help offense pass the ball more, so now the league has turned into amore of a passing league.
Now with these lame roughing the passer rules it really is giving them an advantage.

So should the receivers who will inevitably put up two-thousand yard seasons have a * put next to their accomplishment because of the addition of the illegal contact rule?

[12thMan]

People want it both ways when they bring up the Peyton vs. Brady argument. On one hand they say, Brady is on a better team with a better coach and his wins and losses are more a bye product of his supporting cast than his actual physical prowess and football leadership and skills. Okay, fine.

But then on the other hand, they point to Peyton's individual stats, totally leave out his supporting cast for the past several years, which by the way is better than Brady's, and the fact that he too has a brialliant head coach in his own right.

The one thing that validates Manning as a great quarterback is the one thing that has eluded him. And it's that one thing that Tom Brady just happens to have three times over.

[12thMan]

I watched Jason Taylor on ESPN last week talk about Tom Brady to no end. He felt very strongly, in fact, that Tom Brady is the best quarterback in the NFL today. Okay, so here's the defensive MVP of the league this year, he has no vested interest in being biased one way or another, and he plays them both twice a year.

He pointed out that the thing that makes Brady so special is that he has, what I thought he said was "Phone booth quicks" In other words, Brady can move around in very tight and limited spaces with defenders all around him and still deliver accurate throws. He said almost to a quarterback in the NFL, once they feel pressure they immediately adjust their throw. He said Brady has to actually get 'hit' in order to change his delivery, he's oblvious to just pressure.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I watched Jason Taylor on ESPN last week talk about Tom Brady to no end. He felt very strongly, in fact, that Tom Brady is the best quarterback in the NFL today. Okay, so here's the defensive MVP of the league this year, he has no vested interest in being biased one way or another, and he plays them both twice a year.

He pointed out that the thing that makes Brady so special is that he has, what I thought he said was "Phone booth quicks" In other words, Brady can move around in very tight and limited spaces with defenders all around him and still deliver accurate throws. He said almost to a quarterback in the NFL, once they feel pressure they immediately adjust their throw. He said Brady has to actually get 'hit' in order to change his delivery, he's oblvious to just pressure.

I think that is probably where Brady is better than Manning: pocket presence (and poise in general). IMO, there is nothing more valuable in a QB -- just as long as he can throw the ball (which both Brady and Manning can do very well).

[FRPLG]

So is every player who has been on the team and played significant time the best at his position? It seems some want to give Brady more credit for wins than Peyton. Plain and simple Brady is on a better team. I honestly think based on watching these two that Peyton is the better QB and Brady while very good has the better team. I give him credit for the SB wins but not ALL the credit.

[GiantsSuck703]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

So is every player who has been on the team and played significant time the best at his position? It seems some want to give Brady more credit for wins than Peyton. Plain and simple Brady is on a better team. I honestly think based on watching these two that Peyton is the better QB and Brady while very good has the better team. I give him credit for the SB wins but not ALL the credit.

I would like you to name alot of the players on the patriots superbowl teams that were atleast top 10 at there position? Tom doesnt have Marvin Harrison or did he ever have a RB of Edges abililty, and yes i realize James doesnt play for them anymore

[GTripp0012]

Vladimir Putin has a ring. Does that make him a great football player?

[wilsowilso]

We got many many more years before this debate is decided and in all honesty it might never be. I will say if Brady wins this weekend Manning is behind. It might only take one ring in the future to change things, but Manning has to win Sunday. If the Colts lose he will not and should not be anywhere near the conversation when it comes to big game quarterbacks when talking about the all time greats. His stats will be the only thing keeping him in that conversation and that's pretty uneven footing. I think Brady is better, but I would love for Manning to get this win. Mostly because I think Belichik is overated but that's a different debate.

[LMsexyAO]

Oh, I think I might have misunderstood you. If you are talking pure production and numbers, then any ordinary fantasy football player can tell you that Manning takes the gold. However, I truely think that Brady has that extra something that really shows itself during play off time, be it pocket presence, confidence, leadership, etc..

So in conclusion I think I'd say Manning is more of the best pure athlete, but Brady is more of the best team player. Either way they are both going to be HOFers one day.

P.S. While I also agree with your idea that rings are more a measure of the team than any person, I think it's also clear that a QB holds more responsibility than say a corner or a saftey. Similiar to how a pitcher plays a much bigger impact to a baseball team than a shortstop. So three rings does represent at least something.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by LMsexyAO

P.S. While I also agree with your idea that rings are more a measure of the team than any person, I think it's also clear that a QB holds more responsibility than say a corner or a saftey. Similiar to how a pitcher plays a much bigger impact to a baseball team than a shortstop. So three rings does represent at least something.

Good point. Brady is more responsible for the team's championship run than Rodney Harrison or Asante Samuel.

But Brady and Harrison and Samuel all have the same ring on their finger and I would debate that a ring doesn't mean any less for those guys than it does for Brady. After all they were all Patriots in 03 and 04, and are all multiple time champions.

The three rings Brady has are representive of three seperate times that he has reached the game's ultimate goal. However, he is not a better player in any way because of it, merely a champion. The greatest good in football is to win a championship, but without a considerable deal of help from their team and luck from things they cannot control, a great player cannot become a champion. Said player is not any less great, just not a Champion.