Tom "Iceman" Brady

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dmek25

saying the patriots won those super bowls because of their defense, is an idiotic statement

It's a simplistic statement, one that I'd never say. It would be discrediting the role of the Patriots offense in their playoff run, which I'm NOT doing.

Think about a team with all the offensive players of the Colts, and all the defensive players of the Patriots. Would that team not beat the actual Colts and the actual Patriots 9/10 times each? Of course they would.

Be careful, Dmek, to not get sucked into the rings vs. stats arguement. It's where we started. The modern day Patriots have 3 rings to the Colts 0 because Scott Pioli built a better team from the ground up than Bill Polian did. That much is obvious.

We aren't trying to decide which team is better (the Patriots), only which QB is better. Rings don't help us decide that.

[wolfeskins]

if the colts lose on sunday it will prove, once again, that manning cracks under the pressure of big games.
if the colts win then manning will have proved his critics wrong and he will be one step closer to catching brady for the best stat of all....superbowl wins !

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

if the colts lose on sunday it will prove, once again, that manning cracks under the pressure of big games.
if the colts win then manning will have proved his critics wrong and he will be one step closer to catching brady for the best stat of all....superbowl wins !

What if Manning doesn't crack, and plays well, but the Colts poor run D returns and Dillion/Maroney/Faulk combine for 250 yards leading a Patriot victory?

Could happen.

[Defensewins]

Lol!

[Defensewins]

Yes.

[Defensewins]

You will soon realize you can not use any fact, stat or accomplishment of Bradys that might be better than Mannings.
If you point to the terrible games Manning had in the playoffs, Mr. GTripp0012 will blame the Colts offensive line, defense or the other teams incredible defense. Everyone else is to blame for Mannings terrible playoff performances other than Manning, including the bad NE weather. LOL.

According to Mr. GTripp0012 Manning has never had a bad playoff game. His bad individual performances in the playoffs are everyone elses fault, not Mannings. Manning is a patsie.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

You will soon realize you can not use any fact, stat or accomplishment of Bradys that might be better than Mannings.
If you point to the terrible games Manning had in the playoffs, Mr. GTripp0012 will blame the Colts offensive line, defense or the other teams incredible defense. Everyone else is to blame for Mannings terrible playoff performances other than Manning.

But what in gods name does Brady do better than Manning. IMO, he moves around better in the pocket. That's it.

The reason this is such a dead end arguement for the Brady guys is because theres absolutely ZERO evidence that Brady does even one thing better than Manning. He doesn't complete more passes. He doesn't get more yards, he doesn't get more TD's.

His offenses score significantly less (this is a team stat, so you may dismiss this arguement as a product of his offensive unit, although Manning has significantly more control of this unit than Brady does over the final outcome of games).

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But what in gods name does Brady do better than Manning. IMO, he moves around better in the pocket. That's it.

He throws the ball to the players that are actually on his own team in the playoffs better.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

He throws the ball to the players that are actually on his own team in the playoffs better.

Does he? I think its pretty equal, ESPN posted the stats yesterday.

[GiantsSuck703]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

He throws the ball to the players that are actually on his own team in the playoffs better.

awesome, this one definately made me laugh

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

....The reason this is such a dead end arguement for the Brady guys is because theres absolutely ZERO evidence that Brady does even one thing better than Manning. ...

There is a ton evidence. The problem is you create some lame excuse to dismiss any factual evidence that proves Brady is as good or better Qb in certain catagories. Look Manning is ONE of the great QB.

Do not take this the wrong way, but you are 18 y.o.; believe it or not there are QB's like Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Sammie Baugh, John Elway and Steve Young that have combined AWESOME TALENT and winning MULTIPLE (more than one) big games (super bowls). Tom Brady is closer to these all time greats then Manning or Dan Marino is.

You will soon realize America and the World likes a winner and Manning is not YET a winner. NOBODY remembers who came in second place.
Manning will be a winner some day. He is not yet there.
That is what seperates the great players from the all-time greats.
Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Warren Moon , Fran Tarkenton, Archie Manning (peyton's dad) are players that fall in the same catagory as Peyton Manning, Great/Awesome Hall of Fame talent but never won the big games.

20 or 30 years form now your kids will watch old NFL Films of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's and they see a limited amount of a great Dan Marino, but they see a ton of 3 time SB Champ Tom Brady.
Winning is what seperates the good from the great.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

There is a ton evidence. The problem is you create some lame excuse to dismiss any factual evidence that proves Brady is as good or better Qb in certain catagories. Look Manning is ONE of the great QB.

Do not take this the wrong way, but you are 18 y.o.; believe it or not there are QB's like Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Sammie Baugh, John Elway and Steve Young that have combined AWESOME TALENT and winning MULTIPLE (more than one) big games (super bowls). Tom Brady is closer to these all time greats then Manning or Dan Marino is.

You will soon realize America and the World likes a winner and Manning is not YET a winner. NOBODY remembers who came in second place.
Manning will be a winner some day. He is not yet there.
That is what seperates the great players from the all-time greats.
Dan Marino, Dan Fouts, Warren Moon , Fran Tarkenton, Archie Manning (peyton's dad) are players that fall in the same catagory as Peyton Manning, Great/Awesome Hall of Fame talent but never won the big games.

20 or 30 years form now your kids will watch old NFL Films of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's and they see a limited amount of a great Dan Marino, but they see a ton of 3 time SB Champ Tom Brady.
Winning is what seperates the good from the great.

Every quarterback you listed there was a truely great player. Anyone that doesn't clump Marino in there with those guys is making a big mistake.

Marino was never a champion, and I'm sure he regrets that, but he was a great Quarterback. When you talk about all time greatest QBs, Marino has to be right up there ahead of some guys who were Champions.

For my money, Elway was the greatest ever. I wasn't impressed as much about his two championships (the Broncos were over the cap both years, and the league office never caught it til 2003 when they took away some midround draft picks), as I was with the fact they came at the end of his career where he was still playing at a very high level.

I believe Peyton Manning could one day be the greatest ever. If he retired tomorrow, I'd place him short of the top 5, but in the top 10.

I don't think you are trying to say America won't remember Marino, but I'm certain they will. The guy's a hall of famer. Guys like Moon, and Archie, and Fran Tarkenton, were very very good players, but didn't do as much stat wise in this league as the all time greats. Brady is on pace to be greater, IMO, then these guys. He has to do it longer than 6 years, he will be up there, probably in the top 5 ever. Will he be greater than Montana or Young? Not sure, he might be. Manning almost certainly will be if the Colts don't fall off the map.

[GTripp0012]

Superior team refers to the offense, the defense, and special team. Superior team means if the teams played 100 times on a neutral field, I believe that the team I deem superior would win significantly more times than it lost.

If their stats were close, I wouldn't bother arguing it. My beliefe is that Manning is SO much better that it would be foolish to say otherwise. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, or even the majority. But I do want to see people who think Brady is the leagues best QB defend him with evidence that says he's the leagues best QB, not that he's a winner or clutch. If you say that, you havent said anything. Jake Plummer's a guy who is both a winner and clutch. There's a bunch of guys in the league who I'd rather have than Plummer. We have two on our team right now.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Superior team refers to the offense, the defense, and special team. Superior team means if the teams played 100 times on a neutral field, I believe that the team I deem superior would win significantly more times than it lost.

i'd say they were probably close overall over the last few seasons
just from what i remember i'd give an edge to the colts on offense,an edge to the pats on defense and sp.teams was pretty much even until the post season.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

i'd say they were probably close overall over the last few seasons
just from what i remember i'd give an edge to the colts on offense,an edge to the pats on defense and sp.teams was pretty much even until the post season.

Last year, I'd agree that the Colts had a better team than NE. They both lost pretty bad in the same round in the playoffs.

Every year before that, I'm sure most people would agree with me that the Pats were the better team.