Tom "Iceman" Brady

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

You're definately coming off like a Brady fanboy.

The only sentence I take large issue with in this post is this one: "If NE goes to INDY and wins next week anyone who still says Manning is better than Brady is a fool."

That's too general. What if they go into Indy and win in the same fashion they beat San Diego. What have they proved? That they can get lucky at key times and win despite getting outplayed? Brady 4 Prezident!!!!

The only arguement that could possibly hold any water is one that says the playoffs and regular season are two seperate seasons, and that the complexity of the playoffs is so different from the regular season that its practically not even football. In which case, Brady's performance over 13 games is better than Peytons over 10. But why? Why would it be any different? The pressure is always really, really high during an NFL game. Any game. Peyton Manning obviously isn't bothered by pressure. Cold weather maybe, but not pressure.

The last two times these teams have played, Manning killed them. Torched them. Both times on the road. Where were you for those games?

There obviously is one QB who is more poised with better leadership than Brady, and thats Manning. His production is unbe-freakin-leavable. He wins 75% of his games with little to no help. He is better that Brady in every facet of the game.

I think we will see that this week.

Whats wrong if someone is a Brady fanboy. It sure sounds better than a Manning I can't score a TD or win a playoff fanboy.LOL

[Hail2theskins]

that wasnt directed towards you 12thman, i was late to put my quote in.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Hail2theskins

that wasnt directed towards you 12thman, i was late to put my quote in.

sorry..

[GTripp0012]

For clarification:
When someone asks what Tom Brady has done, it doesn't help your case to spout off what the New England Patriots have done. The New England Patriots have won 3 championships in the last 5 years. The New England Patriots have won their division and made the playoffs 4 times in the last 5 years. Tom Brady is a player on the New England Patriots. He is not the team. He's the best player on the team and the biggest reason why they are so good.

Let's say you are trying to win an election, lets say for town mayor of Foxborough, MA, against 52 other people. The rules are simple, most votes wins. You are the most qualified candidate and collect 10% of the votes. You win by a significant margin. Does that mean that if you ran for President of the U.S., against a candidate from Indianapolis by the name of Peyton Manning, that you are a lock to win?

You could have a lot of national media talking heads that call you a "winner", or a "money-man" or "clutch", but none of those titles actually says anything about you as a candidate.

Likewise, a 12-1 record says nothing about you as a football player. It says that you played on a pretty good team. Did you make them good? Who knows?

In the case of Brady, he does contribute a hefty part to his team's success. Probably more than any other individual on the Patriots. But it's very, very clear that Peyton Manning does a lot more to help the Colts win than Brady does to help the Pats win. Peyton has consistently been putting up 12 win seasons with no defense to speak of whatsoever.

The Patriots have been a better football team than the Colts for years. But Manning wins just as many games if not more than Brady does every year. If he beats Brady in the playoffs this week, the arguement should stop, IMO.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

In the case of Brady, he does contribute a hefty part to his team's success. Probably more than any other individual on the Patriots. But it's very, very clear that Peyton Manning does a lot more to help the Colts win than Brady does to help the Pats win. Peyton has consistently been putting up 12 win seasons with no defense to speak of whatsoever.

The Patriots have been a better football team than the Colts for years. But Manning wins just as many games if not more than Brady does every year. If he beats Brady in the playoffs this week, the arguement should stop, IMO.

That's completely wrong. Last year the Colts D was as dominant as it's ever been (11th in the NFL!) and they got bounced. No D to speak of? What do you call the last 2 weeks? Adam Vinatieri and that D are the only reason Peyton even gets to play Brady. You take away the best receiving corps in the league, his top 4 receivers and then we'll have an argument about how much better Peyton is than Brady. The fact is Peyton is a choker. Adam Vinatieri has saved his ass so far. He has thrown 1 td and 5 picks this postseason. That's garbage.

Peyton is hands down the better passer, however, if he weren't surrounded by the weapons that he has on offense he wouldn't have the passing numbers he has. The Pats are no doubt the more talented team, but their D hasn't played nearly as well as the Colts has this postseason. If they lose this week it will be because of that D and Vinatieri. If Peyton keeps playing the way he has so far, this argument will go on for a long time.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

The Patriots have been a better football team than the Colts for years. But Manning wins just as many games if not more than Brady does every year. If he beats Brady in the playoffs this week, the arguement should stop, IMO.

I think the Manning vs. Brady debate is one of the best arguments in football because there is evidence to support both sides, and I actually lean more towards Peyton myself. However, it's kind of funny that the first several paragraphs of your post make the argument that Brady has benefited from a superior team, and his 12-1 playoff record says more about the team than it does about Brady the quarterback. You then go on to say that if Manning defeats Brady this weekend, all discussion on the topic should end, like it's a one on one battle.

How is it possible for Manning to beat Brady when Brady is only a small part of the entire New England Patriots? If Manning throws for 400 yards and 5 TD's, and Brady throws for 96 yards and 3 picks, but the Patriots somehow find a way to win, does that mean Peyton won the battle?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I think the Manning vs. Brady debate is one of the best arguments in football because there is evidence to support both sides, and I actually lean more towards Peyton myself. However, it's kind of funny that the first several paragraphs of your post make the argument that Brady has benefited from a superior team, and his 12-1 playoff record says more about the team than it does about Brady the quarterback. You then go on to say that if Manning defeats Brady this weekend, all discussion on the topic should end, like it's a one on one battle.

How is it possible for Manning to beat Brady when Brady is only a small part of the entire New England Patriots? If Manning throws for 400 yards and 5 TD's, and Brady throws for 96 yards and 3 picks, but the Patriots somehow find a way to win, does that mean Peyton won the battle?

Don't take the Manning defeats Brady clause out of context. All that means is that if Manning beats Brady this week and goes to the superbowl, then the very weak legs that support the winning in the playoffs arguement for Brady fall apart.

Manning is no greater of a QB if he wins this week (well, maybe a little), but I think more people will respect what hes done if he beats Brady. Don't get me wrong, my opinion won't change.

And you are 100% right, its not about Manning vs. Brady. It's about the Pats vs. the Colts. I'm sorry for getting caught up in the moment and oversimplifing.

If Manning throws for 5 TDs and a shitload of yards to Brady's 3 INTs and a handful of yards, and the Pats win, Manning has vastly outperformed Brady. Neither of them win. The Patriots win the battle, not Brady.

[The Huddle]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

For clarification:
When someone asks what Tom Brady has done, it doesn't help your case to spout off what the New England Patriots have done. The New England Patriots have won 3 championships in the last 5 years. The New England Patriots have won their division and made the playoffs 4 times in the last 5 years. Tom Brady is a player on the New England Patriots. He is not the team. He's the best player on the team and the biggest reason why they are so good.

Let's say you are trying to win an election, lets say for town mayor of Foxborough, MA, against 52 other people. The rules are simple, most votes wins. You are the most qualified candidate and collect 10% of the votes. You win by a significant margin. Does that mean that if you ran for President of the U.S., against a candidate from Indianapolis by the name of Peyton Manning, that you are a lock to win?

You could have a lot of national media talking heads that call you a "winner", or a "money-man" or "clutch", but none of those titles actually says anything about you as a candidate.

Likewise, a 12-1 record says nothing about you as a football player. It says that you played on a pretty good team. Did you make them good? Who knows?

In the case of Brady, he does contribute a hefty part to his team's success. Probably more than any other individual on the Patriots. But it's very, very clear that Peyton Manning does a lot more to help the Colts win than Brady does to help the Pats win. Peyton has consistently been putting up 12 win seasons with no defense to speak of whatsoever.

The Patriots have been a better football team than the Colts for years. But Manning wins just as many games if not more than Brady does every year. If he beats Brady in the playoffs this week, the arguement should stop, IMO.

A 12-1 postseason record in the NFL- the biggest pressure games the sport of football has to offer- says nothing about a team's quarterback? Somehow, I doubt you really believe that, but if you do, more power to you.

Being the best player on and single biggest reason for the success of the league's best team- as you have admitted - doesn't help Brady's case? Now I know you don't believe that.

Basically, what you're doing is trying to hold it against Brady that his team plays better football than Manning's. Manning's stats are the result of his being great- you don't think having Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne to throw to have anything to do with Manning's success.

This topic has grown tired for me. You can have Manning and his numbers, he's a great QB. I can understand your aversion to words like "clutch" and "money" when supporting Manning because that's one thing he's never been in the playoffs (and I have nothing but respect for him, as I have said). I'll take Brady and his proven record for playing his best football in big games, under pressure- unlike Manning, and the record speaks for itself there as well.

The Patriots have beaten the Colts twice in the postseason when both men are playing, but now you want the discussion to end if Manning takes one of three? I can promise you this won't happen.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Huddle

A 12-1 postseason record in the NFL- the biggest pressure games the sport of football has to offer- says nothing about a team's quarterback? Somehow, I doubt you really believe that, but if you do, more power to you.

Being the best player on and single biggest reason for the success of the league's best team- as you have admitted - doesn't help Brady's case? Now I know you don't believe that.

Basically, what you're doing is trying to hold it against Brady that his team plays better football than Manning's. Manning's stats are the result of his being great- you don't think having Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne to throw to have anything to do with Manning's success.

This topic has grown tired for me. You can have Manning and his numbers, he's a great QB. I can understand your aversion to words like "clutch" and "money" when supporting Manning because that's one thing he's never been in the playoffs (and I have nothing but respect for him, as I have said). I'll take Brady and his proven record for playing his best football in big games, under pressure- unlike Manning, and the record speaks for itself there as well.

The Patriots have beaten the Colts twice in the postseason when both men are playing, but now you want the discussion to end if Manning takes one of three? I can promise you this won't happen.

Again, I'm saying if Peyton proves that he can beat Brady under pressure, then an already weak arguement that Brady is a better playoff QB loses it's basis. Manning is no better for beating the Patriots, it's a team game.

Ultimately, someone needs to prove that something changes in Manning brain come playoff time that affects his performance. Because right now, I look at the 2 time league MVP, see the same guy on the field on Sunday, and know that he could have a huge day. Remember, 3 times (2 vs Denver, 1 vs KC), Manning has gone insane in the playoffs. This further weakens the arguement that he cant get it done in the playoffs, because he HAS.

Do you honestly believe that a different person throws on the Colts 18 uniform in the playoffs, a person of considerably less skill? It's BS IMO, that Brady's game elevates in the playoffs, it doesn't. He's the same guy, a top 3 QB in the league. Manning has struggled in some games in the playoffs, but hes also had 3 games in which his team punted a total of 3 times. He can get it done.

[The Huddle]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Again, I'm saying if Peyton proves that he can beat Brady under pressure, then an already weak arguement that Brady is a better playoff QB loses it's basis. Manning is no better for beating the Patriots, it's a team game.

Ultimately, someone needs to prove that something changes in Manning brain come playoff time that affects his performance. Because right now, I look at the 2 time league MVP, see the same guy on the field on Sunday, and know that he could have a huge day. Remember, 3 times (2 vs Denver, 1 vs KC), Manning has gone insane in the playoffs. This further weakens the arguement that he cant get it done in the playoffs, because he HAS.

Do you honestly believe that a different person throws on the Colts 18 uniform in the playoffs, a person of considerably less skill? It's BS IMO, that Brady's game elevates in the playoffs, it doesn't. He's the same guy, a top 3 QB in the league. Manning has struggled in some games in the playoffs, but hes also had 3 games in which his team punted a total of 3 times. He can get it done.

Actually it sounds like you're saying that if the Colts win, the case for Brady is weakened and/or destroyed...but if the Pats win, the case for Manning is as strong as ever. I can't see how that makes any sense.

Look, Manning has a good team around him and an excellent coach. I have been impressed with their defensive effort the last couple of weeks, especially consdiering Manning has been somewhat off. We should resume this argument after he wins a championship.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Huddle

Actually it sounds like you're saying that if the Colts win, the case for Brady is weakened and/or destroyed...but if the Pats win, the case for Manning is as strong as ever. I can't see how that makes any sense.

Look, Manning has a good team around him and an excellent coach. I have been impressed with their defensive effort the last couple of weeks, especially consdiering Manning has been somewhat off. We should resume this argument after he wins a championship.

Manning may never win a championship, but if there is really something special to Brady, he can win 3 more easy, right?

The pro Brady arguement is based on two things

1) Tossing out any and all of Manning regular season accomplishments-basically assuming either regular season equality, or insignificance.
2) Proof that Manning's cognitive clarity is affected by playoff style pressure.

It's difficult, for any QB, to win on the road in inclimate weather in the playoffs, against the leagues best D's. Manning has yet to be successful (in 3 tries since 2002), Brady failed in Denver anyway. I'm not sure I'd attribute this phenomenon to playoff pressure as much as it just seems like a situation that the QB is going to struggle in. Manning has, Brady has.

[wilsowilso]

The Colts are a flawed football team so I will agree that Manning does a lot more to create that problem than you think. He is all numbers and absolutely no substance. The team has the mindset that they can run anybody off the field and then when the pressure rises what happens? Have you noticed what happens to that team whenever they meet a good defense in the playoffs? They lose. Every time. One win won't change that, but it will help. If the Colts lose next week the argument should never have even happened in the first place.

[MTK]

We can argue all day about Brady, fact is the guy is a winner, there's absolutely no disputing that.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

We can argue all day about Brady, fact is the guy is a winner, there's absolutely no disputing that.

No arguement here, Manning's a winner too.

But then again, doesn't being a winner just mean you've won more than you've lost.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

No arguement here, Manning's a winner too.

But then again, doesn't being a winner just mean you've won more than you've lost.

But ultimately these guys are judged on winning championships, and right now Brady is up there with Montana and Manning with Marino.