Civil Discussion About Religion

[RobH4413]

Just got home from work- Thought beemnseven had some good point...

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Is it also possible that there is one right religion, sure... I just don't know which one it is, and wonder why so many people can be so sure that theirs is it.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

Just got home from work- Thought beemnseven had some good point...

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Is it also possible that there is one right religion, sure... I just don't know which one it is, and wonder why so many people can be so sure that theirs is it.

Yeah, the penalty for not believing seems a bit extreme for what everyone says is a loving God.

So ... when the originator of the concept of religion came up with the incentives for getting a pass to this alternate dimension, where the streets are paved with gold, and you get to live with everyone you've ever loved for all eternity, somewhere along the way, they realized that wasn't enough. There had to be a threat involved. That's when the concept of Hell was created. "Believe what I tell you, and you will live in paradise when you die -- but if you don't, you will descend into an awful place full of pain, agony, suffering, and flames."

If you think about it, everything adds up...

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

Just got home from work- Thought beemnseven had some good point...

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Is it also possible that there is one right religion, sure... I just don't know which one it is, and wonder why so many people can be so sure that theirs is it.

Help me clarify Rob,
are you the 100% pure person? or who is? metaphor?
In the next paragraph, who are you referring to? Who exploited people?
Just curious, thanx



How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Help me clarify Rob,
are you the 100% pure person? or who is? metaphor?
In the next paragraph, who are you referring to? Who exploited people?
Just curious, thanx



How can a man 100% purely good in the heart, who doesn't believe in an entity known as "God", defy what a relegion speaks of.

I also found it entirely plausible for someone, throughout the corse of time, to have created a religion and exploited people. It just all seems very likely for that to have happened.

Yeah, sorry... it was 4:00am when I wrote this...

I was referring to those kind of people that exploit people in general. They've always been here, and always will be here. So it's not hard to fathom that some random guy, or group of people, decided to make a religion and exploit a populations fear of death into some scam.

Secondly to clarify about a 100% pure person...I was speaking about the possibility that someone purely good can't go to heaven according to certain religions.

If Ghandi, for example, didn't believe in god and helped millions of people how could he not go to heaven? How could someone to fit every definition of what is a good person is in certain religions not reach the ultimate reward? Why is having faith so important?

In a world as confusing as this one is, it's hard to understand why faith is what gets you in. However, I do see faith as an important concept in general, but not necessarily in god par se.

In some ways, we all have to have "faith". If we were total skeptics about everything we would get nothing accomplished. We have to have faith that doing what's good is the right thing.

There really is no empirical evidence, aside from being raised a particular way or another, that doing "good" is right at all... so the concept of faith isn't totally unfamiliar.

See Leap of faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . My philosophy teacher in high school totally broke the whole class down for a month. Made us all total skeptics, and then in the end... presented the "leap of faith" above and it blew us all away. I thought it was pretty cool.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

Yeah, sorry... it was 4:00am when I wrote this...

I was referring to those kind of people that exploit people in general. They've always been here, and always will be here. So it's not hard to fathom that some random guy, or group of people, decided to make a religion and exploit a populations fear of death into some scam.

Secondly to clarify about a 100% pure person...I was speaking about the possibility that someone purely good can't go to heaven according to certain religions.

If Ghandi, for example, didn't believe in god and helped millions of people how could he not go to heaven? How could someone to fit every definition of what is a good person is in certain religions not reach the ultimate reward? Why is having faith so important?

In a world as confusing as this one is, it's hard to understand why faith is what gets you in. However, I do see faith as an important concept in general, but not necessarily in god par se.

In some ways, we all have to have "faith". If we were total skeptics about everything we would get nothing accomplished. We have to have faith that doing what's good is the right thing.

There really is no empirical evidence, aside from being raised a particular way or another, that doing "good" is right at all... so the concept of faith isn't totally unfamiliar.

See Leap of faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . My philosophy teacher in high school totally broke the whole class down for a month. Made us all total skeptics, and then in the end... presented the "leap of faith" above and it blew us all away. I thought it was pretty cool.

No person can be 100% pure. It's impossible. That aside, I actually understand exactly where you're coming from. That's why I said my comments about grace in a previous post, and comments about "why do all the religions have the same common demoninator in God with several different saviors?"
I also look at it like this, if God loves us unconditionally, then why would he set us up for certain doom. Maybe, just maybe, the bible is a way of scaring us straight. Kind of like when you parents said "you'll get hairy palms if you masterbate (or go blind)", or "if you take a hit of marijuana, you'll die". etc. Their intentions are honorable, but they are trying to scare you from doing something that could hurt you.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by jsarno

No person can be 100% pure. It's impossible. That aside, I actually understand exactly where you're coming from. That's why I said my comments about grace in a previous post, and comments about "why do all the religions have the same common demoninator in God with several different saviors?"
I also look at it like this, if God loves us unconditionally, then why would he set us up for certain doom. Maybe, just maybe, the bible is a way of scaring us straight. Kind of like when you parents said "you'll get hairy palms if you masterbate (or go blind)", or "if you take a hit of marijuana, you'll die". etc. Their intentions are honorable, but they are trying to scare you from doing something that could hurt you.

It was an exaggeration to emphasize a point...


Organized religions are human institutions. Anything human is always very, very corrupt. You can look at governments to understand that. I'm not saying that they're totally evil things, but I think they do alot more harm then most people can come to terms with.

Your second point I tend to agree with. If you look at every religion, you'll find a similar path; be God like. This is taken both literally and metaphorically in some religions... where some believe that one will become god and lose their individuality, or that we are to look to a "God" as a guide to live by.

Christianity is living like Jesus, and Jesus is in-fact God.

I hate to bring the same quote from earlier in the thread, but..

Originally Posted by 311

In times of trouble
Everyone joins a team
No one waves a flag
For all human beings
No one's excited
Unless they are divided
Someone's going to have to give
It seems uncertain
I'd like to be
One of the faithful millions
But what I see
Is an excuse for the killing

Your denomination
Should be a private thing
How about a spirit
For all human beings
How could something well guided
Turn out to be divisive
Mostly wondering
It seems uncertain

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

It was an exaggeration to emphasize a point...


Organized religions are human institutions. Anything human is always very, very corrupt. You can look at governments to understand that. I'm not saying that they're totally evil things, but I think they do alot more harm then most people can come to terms with.

Your second point I tend to agree with. If you look at every religion, you'll find a similar path; be God like. This is taken both literally and metaphorically in some religions... where some believe that one will become god and lose their individuality, or that we are to look to a "God" as a guide to live by.

Christianity is living like Jesus, and Jesus is in-fact God.

I hate to bring the same quote from earlier in the thread, but..

#1- What the hell are you doing up so late / early?
#2- Quoting a racist group (311...ie: 3, 11 being the K in the alphabet as the 11th letter...3 K's...KKK.) is not a good thing.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by jsarno

#1- What the hell are you doing up so late / early?
#2- Quoting a racist group (311...ie: 3, 11 being the K in the alphabet as the 11th letter...3 K's...KKK.) is not a good thing.

#1) I work at a bar/restaurant called "Hard Times Cafe"... I get out of there around 3:00/3:30 so Im usually up for a good hour after I get off. My schedule varies greatly, so some Im always on at awkward times.

#2) You just irked every 311 fan in the world on that one. I'll clear the air for ya:

Originally Posted by http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/311_(band)

In 1997 the band started to receive criticism due to perceived racism as "311" is used as a symbol, particularly in prison tattoos, for the Ku Klux Klan because K is the 11th letter of the alphabet (Three 11s = Three Ks = KKK) It was also rumored that Nick Hexum was a member of The National Front, which is a white supremacy group.

The name actually came from a skinny dipping incident when Jim Watson, the band's former guitarist, was charged with indecent exposure by the Omaha Police Department and was escorted home handcuffed and naked. The police code which appeared on the citation was "311". Nick Hexum has said: After the humor of the name wore off, we still kept it because we liked that it was just abstract and that it did not define us in any way. The name did not describe our sound or our politics, it just let the music speak for itself.
Released in 1994 on Grassroots, long before the KKK rumor surfaced, the song "Silver" provides some strong words about racism:
Of the racist institutions, simple minds belong;Not happy being human, no wish to get along.Little people need exclusions; sucker groups to throng.It makes them feel special; it makes them feel strong.Now I've got a clique but it's more like a family.Not an ethnic trip more like an ethic sea.I write the rhyme today, tell it to you later.Whether we're comin' in whack or what.It's a waste to be a hater.
In response to the rumors, Nick Hexum began to write a song for the 1997 release Transistor titled "**** The KKK". After thinking about the title and how it wasn't true to the positive nature of 311, he revised it and ended up with "Electricity", the sixth track on the album.
First two lines from "Electricity":
This song started as a rant against hatersBut that'd be giving in to the instigators
Last verse:
A call out for unityIn every province and city.What do you think we've been saying''Since we first started playing?
(These last lines can be seen as a reference to the early 311 song "Unity".) It should also be noted that singer Doug "SA" Martinez is of Latino descent.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I also look at it like this, if God loves us unconditionally, then why would he set us up for certain doom. Maybe, just maybe, the bible is a way of scaring us straight. Kind of like when you parents said "you'll get hairy palms if you masterbate (or go blind)", or "if you take a hit of marijuana, you'll die". etc. Their intentions are honorable, but they are trying to scare you from doing something that could hurt you.

By that logic, the Bible and/or religion is a set of lies to "scare us straight" -- albeit with honorable intentions. Yet, isn't lying a sin? That is a contradiction.

EDIT: you did say "kind of like when your parents...", so I guess it was just a bad example.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

By that logic, the Bible and/or religion is a set of lies to "scare us straight" -- albeit with honorable intentions. Yet, isn't lying a sin? That is a contradiction.

EDIT: you did say "kind of like when your parents...", so I guess it was just a bad example.

haha, yeah.
I also keep in mind that the bible has been translated by humans over the years, I take the bible for it's value.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

The one thing that actually turned me off from religion was the concept of faith. It seemed very sketchy that you had to believe, and why a god would care whether or not we "believed" in him. What a shallow thing for him to ask from us. Just didn't make sense to me.

That's always been one of my big gripes with religion.

This crap about non-believers going to hell is all about controlling people with fear.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

That's always been one of my big gripes with religion.

This crap about non-believers going to hell is all about controlling people with fear.

That's maybe the coolest thing about it. Not one opinon, be it scientific, evolutionist, creationist can be PROOF POSITIVE substanciated.
By the time we figure out the truth, it may be to late, depending what you believe.