Tiered minimum wage?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by gibbsisgod

I think this thread is getting way to political for this board and is in danger of getting locked.

I will say that for every single mother who really needs help from welfare, there are 2 people who take advantage of the system and live off of the goverment.

the minimum wage is no where close to where it should be. Somebody quoted that the cost of living has gone up by almost 15% in the last 7 years. I think its way more than that considering Health Care costs. My healthcare premiums this year alone increased by almost $1000. My 2% "cost of living" increase is gobbled up by that and I am still left struggling to make MY 'LIVING WAGE'.

I made 50k last year. I have 3 kids and a wife that works part time making about 8-10k a year and we STRUGGLE to get by.

This is going to sound really insensitive, but... maybe you shouldn't have had three kids on a salary that only pays 50k a year? Knowing that kids are on the way, (you've got 9 months of preparation for each) that gives plenty of time to prepare, save, find a second job, work on higher education or job skills ...

And maybe the wife should work full time? There are so many opportunities in this country that you can use to better yourself and your situation rather than use the government to force arbitrary wages on employers because you didn't prepare adequately.

[gibbsisgod]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

This is going to sound really insensitive, but... maybe you shouldn't have had three kids on a salary that only pays 50k a year? Knowing that kids are on the way, (you've got 9 months of preparation for each) that gives plenty of time to prepare, save, find a second job, work on higher education or job skills ...

And maybe the wife should work full time? There are so many opportunities in this country that you can use to better yourself and your situation rather than use the government to force arbitrary wages on employers because you didn't prepare adequately.

As much as I want to say f you buddy, I wont because in some ways you are right.

I didn't mean to make it sound as if I was dead broke or anything like that. My bills are paid, I owe no credit debt(other than 1 car payment) and I live pretty well considering where I live. I am not poor by any means but I do live paycheck to paycheck with liilte or none left over for savings.

It was our choice that my wife doesn't work fulltime so she would be home with our kids(where she and other mothers belong). When she did work we lived much better.

The point I was trying to get accross was this: My income hasn't increased near as much as the cost of living. Every year I get a 2-3% increase but it seasm my cost of living goes up 5-10%. I understand my kids play some part in that but they have nothing to do with raised taxes, increasing health care costs, and things of that nature.


Its wrong of you to judge me and my situation when you don't know all the facts. I have NEVER gone without a job. I have never applied for any kind of Goverment assistance whether it be unemployment, welfare or otherwise. I think I have done pretty good for myself considering the cards I have been dealt in life. I have never asked for help because I have the ablility and the drive to do it myself.
And maybe thats what I should have said to begin with.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by gibbsisgod

As much as I want to say f you buddy, I wont because in some ways you are right.

I didn't mean to make it sound as if I was dead broke or anything like that. My bills are paid, I owe no credit debt(other than 1 car payment) and I live pretty well considering where I live. I am not poor by any means but I do live paycheck to paycheck with liilte or none left over for savings.

It was our choice that my wife doesn't work fulltime so she would be home with our kids(where she and other mothers belong). When she did work we lived much better.

The point I was trying to get accross was this: My income hasn't increased near as much as the cost of living. Every year I get a 2-3% increase but it seasm my cost of living goes up 5-10%. I understand my kids play some part in that but they have nothing to do with raised taxes, increasing health care costs, and things of that nature.


Its wrong of you to judge me and my situation when you don't know all the facts. I have NEVER gone without a job. I have never applied for any kind of Goverment assistance whether it be unemployment, welfare or otherwise. I think I have done pretty good for myself considering the cards I have been dealt in life. I have never asked for help because I have the ablility and the drive to do it myself.
And maybe thats what I should have said to begin with.

Well I could understand if you wanted to tell me to f... off -- I knew those comments were somewhat "biting". Anyway, no, I don't know your whole situation. My response was based only on the information you gave (3 kids, you make 50k/year, wife works part time).

My main contention is that petitioning the government for a higher minimum wage is asking for government assistance.

The other things people often mention like, "I have X number of kids, so I can't afford to live on that" -- that doesn't wash with me. First off, you shouldn't be reproducing if the best you can do is minimum wage.

I also think people easily forget the risk that is involved with owning your own business, i.e., being an employer. It takes so much time, capital, hard work, and the possibility of failure is so much greater when you start a business. Add to that the responsibility of hiring people - the trust that's involved with those hirees -- it's a major headache. Then on of top all of that, a completely unrelated third party (the gov't) forces that person at the point of a gun to offer a minimum wage -- in some cases a wage that is much higher than the person is worth. When that happens, the employer's budget goes out of whack, and he either has to adjust his hiring down, or make up the cost for the higher wage into the price of the product or service he offers.

I could go on and on. The minimum wage is a socialist concept. Let the free market decide wages, and let individuals negotiate their own salary without interference from government.

[gibbsisgod]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

The other things people often mention like, "I have X number of kids, so I can't afford to live on that" -- that doesn't wash with me. First off, you shouldn't be reproducing if the best you can do is minimum wage.

Amen brother!!!!

[dmek25]

[quote=Beemnseven;270421]

My main contention is that petitioning the government for a higher minimum wage is asking for government assistance.


quote]
this is a ridiculous statement. at any place of employment, a standard raise, as long as the company does well, is expected, yearly. when is the last time you went without a raise? its been like 9 years that the minimum has been raised? any small business that doesn't do well usually doesn't last very long. and since the govt feels obligated to normally side with ownership on such labor issues, the minimum stays the same. why penalize the people that are willing to work these jobs? then you start getting into the illegal immigrant thing. i do not want people to get too comfortable in these jobs, but they should be able to survive, also

[Beemnseven]

My main contention is that petitioning the government for a higher minimum wage is asking for government assistance.

Originally Posted by dmek25

...this is a ridiculous statement.

What's ridiculous about it? If someone calls for an increase in the federal minimum wage, which is a federal law, how is that NOT assistance from the government?

"...at any place of employment, a standard raise, as long as the company does well, is expected, yearly. when is the last time you went without a raise?"

A private employer has no legal obligation under the law to give anyone a raise. If the employees don't like their wages, or if their employer refuses to give them a raise, then they will seek other jobs -- and that employer will lose workers.

"why penalize the people that are willing to work these jobs? ... i do not want people to get too comfortable in these jobs, but they should be able to survive, also..."

If you think people should be able to survive, you have every right to give them all the money you want. But you have no right to force me or any employer to pay them higher than they are worth.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I could go on and on. The minimum wage is a socialist concept. Let the free market decide wages, and let individuals negotiate their own salary without interference from government.

if the govt wouldn't have interfered in the first place, employers would be willing to be honest with people, and negotiations. now every potential employer looks at situations like the air traffic contollers, and knows they have the govt's backing. maybe there ought to be a cap on the amount of profits anyone can make, that way the money is distributed more equally. and not some company C.E.O making 20 to 40 million a year, while the everyday joes that work for him make 40,000 a year. does that really seem fair to anyone?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by dmek25

if the govt wouldn't have interfered in the first place, employers would be willing to be honest with people, and negotiations. now every potential employer looks at situations like the air traffic contollers, and knows they have the govt's backing. maybe there ought to be a cap on the amount of profits anyone can make, that way the money is distributed more equally. and not some company C.E.O making 20 to 40 million a year, while the everyday joes that work for him make 40,000 a year. does that really seem fair to anyone?

Money should be distributed equally?

Let me ask you this: Should a landscaper who cuts grass make as much as a brain surgeon?

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Money should be distributed equally?

Let me ask you this: Should a landscaper who cuts grass make as much as a brain surgeon?

that is definitely not my point. i mean when a company has profit, the money should be more equally divided, not the C.E.O and the board members raking in millions, while the working force makes 40.000 or so a year. the imbalance between the officers and workers is greater here in the U.S than in any other country. yes, i do think they deserve the bigger chunk of the profits. but to tell me that they are that much more important to the company, then i am, is absurd.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by dmek25

that is definitely not my point. i mean when a company has profit, the money should be more equally divided, not the C.E.O and the board members raking in millions, while the working force makes 40.000 or so a year. the imbalance between the officers and workers is greater here in the U.S than in any other country. yes, i do think they deserve the bigger chunk of the profits. but to tell me that they are that much more important to the company, then i am, is absurd.

All right, let me put it a different way -- should the parking lot attendant at Fed Ex Field make as much as Santana Moss? Should their pay be more equal?

It is no different from the CEO of Toyota Motor Corporation and the auto worker -- one is infinitely more valuable than the other, and one can be easily replaced by another. Most people can weld two sheets of metal together. Not many can plan, tactically manage profits, organize budgets, hire effectively, and provide leadership in economically difficult times.

By the way dmek, you probably make more than me.

[RobH4413]

I just wrote a friggin book for a response...

and it all got deleted some-how...

there will be a response coming later today, but im really frustrated right now.

man, this could almost get it's own "f" thread....

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

When that happens, the employer's budget goes out of whack, and he either has to adjust his hiring down, or make up the cost for the higher wage into the price of the product or service he offers.

That's pretty much why outsourcing is so popular. The governement is hands off on the international market (relativley speaking), and that kind of min wage is unregulated.

I'm sensing a strong conservative vibe to your posts (which I have no problem with), and would like to ask you what ultimatley is the goal of an economy? Are you an advocate for the trickle down theory?

Are you trying to have psuedo slaves making a buck fifty and hour struggling to raise kids, only to have the cycle repeat itself? What do you think will happen to crime in the cities when the governent is "hands off" the buisness aspect of the economy? There are so many variables to be considered.

We need to work on increasing resources for social programs intended to provide the pathways for those who have the desire to get out of poverty throught hard work. Will there be poor people? of course... but there isn't enough being done at the moment.

You can't agree that the statis quo is acceptable... there needs to be alot more done socially both here, and over-seas.

I refuse to accept the abuse of the less fortunate at the cost of a bunch of rich guys. That's garbage.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I refuse to accept the abuse of the less fortunate at the cost of a bunch of rich guys. That's garbage.

for someone so young, this is a very bold statement. i agree. just like they say, the rich get richer.....

[Beemnseven]

That's pretty much why outsourcing is so popular. The governement is hands off on the international market (relativley speaking), and that kind of min wage is unregulated.

Is it your position that the United States government should be able to dictate wages in, say ... Indonesia?

I'm sensing a strong conservative vibe to your posts (which I have no problem with), and would like to ask you what ultimatley is the goal of an economy? Are you an advocate for the trickle down theory?

I consider myself to be more libertarian. I'm a capitalist, which means that I believe the free market should determine wages and prices. When there are less taxes levied against businesses and the rich -- that extra money gets saved, invested, or spent -- meaning there's more money for banks to loan > loans that go to financing homes, cars, more businesses > which leads to higher employment (more people making and selling more cars and homes) which makes the economy strong. So yes, that's basically the "trickle down theory".

Are you trying to have psuedo slaves making a buck fifty and hour struggling to raise kids, only to have the cycle repeat itself? What do you think will happen to crime in the cities when the governent is "hands off" the buisness aspect of the economy? There are so many variables to be considered.

They're not slaves. They can leave their employer any time, and strive to do better, increase their job training, education and skills, which enables them to make more money. And the fault lies with them for having kids they cannot afford. Like I said in an earlier post, those who can't make more than 5 bucks an hour should not be having kids.

We need to work on increasing resources for social programs intended to provide the pathways for those who have the desire to get out of poverty throught hard work. Will there be poor people? of course... but there isn't enough being done at the moment.

What sort of social programs? Charity groups like the Salvation Army makes billions and billions a year just on the donations of private citizens -- without coersion from government. How much should we give them? What would happen if we all decided to give them a one time payout of $50,000?

You can't agree that the statis quo is acceptable... there needs to be alot more done socially both here, and over-seas. I refuse to accept the abuse of the less fortunate at the cost of a bunch of rich guys. That's garbage

Like I told dmek, if you don't like how the "less fortunate" are getting along, you can stroke them a check. Just don't force me to do it through the government.